The Best A P O'Brien has ever trained

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At the Start
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Galileo said:
I stick by what I said, DOM will prove to be the best horse O'Brien has trained in his career. A track like York could see him through in a huge performance.
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Better than Hawk Wing? Who is comfortably the best so far right?
 
Hawk Wing was a brilliant horse, but not the best racehorse that O'Brien has ever trained in my opinion.
 
The point of this thread was that you (and others) say what was. Of course you've already indicated that you're wrong.
 
My figure for DOM going into today was 127+.

With Papal Bull getting so close, I have to wonder if DOM is anywhere near O'Brien's previous best. He doesn't strike me as that much better than Yeats.

There may well be plenty more to come, of course, but surely he's a long way to go to get anywhere near the likes of Hawk Wing, Galileo, High Chaparral, etc.
 
The answer to who was the best horse trained by Vincent o Brien was answered several times by the man himself,Lester and several asistant trainers.The answer often changed.
I suspect its the same at the moment-there will never be a definitive answer.
 
Duke Of Marmalade was quick enough to be placed in a St James Palace (when not himself all last season) and able to land a King George over 12 furlongs. The likes of High Chaparral and Galileo could not have done that. Maybe over 12 furlongs they would beat him but he would have them every day over 10 furlongs.
 
Spot on. He was all out to beat Papal Bull ffs. He stays 12f right enough, but he`ll need to win an Arc to be the best AOB has trained. As for his "form" over 8f last year - big deal, it was a very average St James Palace. He`s not even the best horse in his yard now never mind ever.
 
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Galileo most definately for me. If any of the current lot are going to be considered in that bracket, it would more likely be Henry for me
 
IMO, a lot of people STILL don't give the duke the credit he deserves. He has won 4 g1's this season and people keep crabbing his form (latest is the prox of Papal Bull) but to me he seems like a typical top class danehill, tough as teak, superb temperament and the beauty of him is that he always seem to keep a little up his sleeve. It's a pity more people don't appreciate that we're witnessing an exceptional colt here. Enjoy him, his like are not ten a penny.
 
Top 10:

Hawk Wing>Galileo>High Chaparral>Dylan Thomas> Rock of Gibraltar>George Washington>Giant`s Causeway>Henry...>Stravinsky>Duke of Marmalade>

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IMO, a lot of people STILL don't give the duke the credit he deserves. He has won 4 g1's this season and people keep crabbing his form (latest is the prox of Papal Bull) but to me he seems like a typical top class danehill, tough as teak, superb temperament and the beauty of him is that he always seem to keep a little up his sleeve. It's a pity more people don't appreciate that we're witnessing an exceptional colt here. Enjoy him, his like are not ten a penny.

the race today is one reason why I don't make ratings the be all an end all..they didn't really tell the full tale today

again..I don't see why PB is held in such low regard..re placings anyway..yes he is a monkey re actually winning...but when at his best in these conditions should really be a decent marker horse
 
Would I rate DOM the best yet? No...but by the end of the season I suspect he will be.

Take Papal Bull out today and DOM would have won a King George by a distance from a horse who got close enough to Dylan Thomas last year in the same race.
 
Sea Pigeon said:
IMO, a lot of people STILL don't give the duke the credit he deserves. He has won 4 g1's this season and people keep crabbing his form (latest is the prox of Papal Bull) but to me he seems like a typical top class danehill, tough as teak, superb temperament and the beauty of him is that he always seem to keep a little up his sleeve. It's a pity more people don't appreciate that we're witnessing an exceptional colt here. Enjoy him, his like are not ten a penny.
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I don't really think that's the case, SP. We're just trying to get a proper handle on the form lines. No-one would argue with what you're saying apart from that. Maybe it depends on how one defines 'exceptional'. What he has done borders on the exceptional but does that make him an exceptional horse? Chaplins Club won something like 34 races in a matter of a few seasons, which was an exceptional achievement, but to waht extent diod it make him an exceptional horse?

I don't mind admitting it took me until it was too late to appreciate what Rock Of Gibraltar did in his 3yo season. My problem was that I just kept rating him on the bare form, which wasn't exceptional. I failed to appreciate the nature of the beast, which was.
 
ratings don't take into account consistency..ROG as you say ran to decent but not great marks..but never gets the credit ..ie extra rating...for the consistency

i
 
Take Papal Bull out today and DOM would have won a King George by a distance from a horse who got close enough to Dylan Thomas last year in the same race
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Leave Papal Bull in and you would concede that he is a better horse than DT then?
 
Euronymous said:
Spot on. He was all out to beat Papal Bull ffs. He stays 12f right enough, but he`ll need to win an Arc to be the best AOB has trained. As for his "form" over 8f last year - big deal, it was a very average St James Palace. He`s not even the best horse in his yard now never mind ever.
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Greek Dance & Valentino got close to Giants Causeway, High Chaparral got beat in Arcs by Marienbard and Mubtaker, Dylan Thomas got beat by Notnowcato etc etc. Does that make them unjustified Champions because on an occasion or two a horse got closer to them than you would like? Of course not. I hope Duke Of Marmalade gets to meet his "Fantastic Light" or his "Kalanisi" because I think he can and will do something special.

His form over a mile is of course "important". Galileo or High Chaparral would not have been able to run to over 120 in a mile race. He also ran Dylan Thomas to under two lengths last year when clearly not himself.

But everyone has different opinions I guess..
 
EC1 said:
ratings don't take into account consistency..ROG as you say ran to decent but not great marks..but never gets the credit ..ie extra rating...for the consistency

i
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I'd never add anything to a horse's rating for consistency. I expect the majority of horses to be consistent.

I'll add a definite figure if I see a horse actually eased a quantifiable distance, eg, it's five lengths clear with 100y to go and the jockey eases it down to a one-length win.

I'm wary about going overboard with horses that appear to win easily and tend to limit my add-on to a couple of pounds only. I prefer to add a '+' to the bare figure and see what circumstances surround the horse next time.

In ROG's case, I could simply never measure his superiority as he always won by short margins. The figures were telling me he was improving but only by a pound or two at a time, but he just kept on winning. And I kept f*cking opposing him!!!
 
agree

I wouldn't add for consistency..but to me that is a slight flaw in judging horses just by rating...there is more to greatness than one very high rating
 
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Let's not forget DOM lost most of a hoof in his juvenile season. This will have affected him mentally as well as physically and it's taken him time to mature in both respects. Now he has confidence in himself and is no longer 'feeling the ghost of the injury' - and we are seeing what he is made of.

Murtagh said today he thinks he could very well be better than DT [mind you I think Manduro was better than DT].

But as Gal has pointed out, the greatness of DOM will lie in his versatility as well as his will to win. Few horses can act at Grade 1 level over such diverse distances. I've taken a long time to warm to him but he may indeed be something very out of the ordinary
 
Galileo said:
Greek Dance & Valentino got close to Giants Causeway, High Chaparral got beat in Arcs by Marienbard and Mubtaker, Dylan Thomas got beat by Notnowcato etc etc. Does that make them unjustified Champions because on an occasion or two a horse got closer to them than you would like? Of course not. I hope Duke Of Marmalade gets to meet his "Fantastic Light" or his "Kalanisi" because I think he can and will do something special.

His form over a mile is of course "important". Galileo or High Chaparral would not have been able to run to over 120 in a mile race.
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But the Duke is not a champion over 12f. All those horses got close to the Champions you listed because of different reasons - GC was like RoG in that he never won races easily, High Chaparral had generally had enough for the season by the time October came round and DT was prone to the odd off day. My point is that if the Duke is to put in that "special" performance it will be over 10f, because he wont be up to beating New Approach or Montmartre in the Arc. As for your final point, Galileo was a 135 animal over 12f, maybe three or four pounds off that over 10 so I for one reckon he could have run to 120 over 8f - same with High Chapparal, who beat Falbrav twice and he was pretty good over a mile.
 
It was when I was watching a replay of the past Eclipses that it really struck me just what a legend Giant's Causeway was.

He broke Sakhee in that race and then Kalanisi came to win the race and he fought back and beat him. To raise your game twice against horses of that calibre in one race is quite astounding. A special horse - just wish we coud have seen him race on at 4yo.
 
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