The Church

They haven't had to call it rotten to the core, Dave. The implication is clear for all to see. Why, if you listen to clivex anyone who is Catholic is also a kiddie fiddler!

The fact is that the Catholic church is not perfect. Neither is any religion. Yet it is always the Catholics that come under fire. I can't remember the last time any Catholics flew a plane into a building in the name of "religion", can you?
 
Dom, I agree with what you are saying, but I also think they bring a lot of it upon themselves by A. Commiting whatever crimes they did in the first place, and B. Trying to cover them up for tens of years. That just adds to the crime in the first place.

By the way, I'm very anti-religious of all pursasions.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@May 13 2008, 08:44 PM
I can't remember the last time any Catholics flew a plane into a building in the name of "religion", can you?
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There has been no shortage of historical examples of attrocities, and wars carried out in the name of Catholicism. A quick flick through any European history book will quickly confirm this. I don't know the exact figures but I'd have thought the Spanish Inquisition alone (which was most definately inspired by a religious dogma) accounted for more deaths than 9/11? Smaller scale examples continue to exist today. The other thing about 9/11 of course is that Muslims were also killed, where as the examples I'm thinking of were much more discriminatory.
 
Warbler don't go there, every religion has had atrocities committed in it's name by people by mad crazy people, not by God.

Can we stop blaming the Aids epidemic on the Catholic church because it doesn't condone the use of condoms.People have a choice, if they choose to sleep around, which the Catholic Church also says is wrong, than why don't they just put a rubber on.
 
No one is blaming the church....but it hardly helps does it? :rolleyes:

Every religion has a past but isnt this about the here and now?
 
Originally posted by clivex@May 13 2008, 10:59 PM
No one is blaming the church....but it hardly helps does it? :rolleyes:

Every religion has a past but isnt this about the here and now?
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You suggested the Catholic Church's missions are to help AIDS sufferers who had contracted AIDS because the Catholic Church instructed them not to use condoms - that kind of implies the Catholic Church is repsonsible.

I notice how you and Andrew Hurley have failed to mention Nelson Mandela's record on AIDS in South Africa?

Blaming the Catholic Church for the srpead os AIDS in Africa is the most ridiculously ill-informed rubbish ever perpetrated - the Catholic Church is extremely influential in countries such as Poland, Portugal, Spain, and Ireland for instance, where AIDS rates bear no comparison with those in Africa.

The reason for the disproportionate spread of AIDS in Africa has much more to do with the leadership in those countries - and it is ironic that the man most western liberals held up as being "great" (ie. Mandela) has a very sad record in office on AIDS policies.

Of course, this is all immaterial - as I have already said, if you have first hand, local experience of the Catholic church, as I do, then your views are a) more relvevant and informed and b) some way above tabloid sensationalism.
 
Of course, this is all immaterial - as I have already said, if you have first hand, local experience of the Catholic church, as I do, then your views are a) more relvevant and informed and b) some way above tabloid sensationalism.
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As arrogant statements go...that takes some beating

So the view that the catholic church is preaching against contraception in africa is "ill informed" is it? And i suppose that is not " relevant" to the spread of AIDS

Can you explain both of these points?

By a simple Google i would suggest i have already a complete head start on your knowledge of the catholic chrurches activities in Africa.

http://www.cathnews.com/news/310/53.php

From the Catholic News FFS

notice how you and Andrew Hurley have failed to mention Nelson Mandela's record on AIDS in South Africa?
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As illogical statements go....that takes some beating

So Nelson Mandela (and his awful successors) are culpable too That makes it ok does it? Gets the church off the hook ?

Bizarre
 
Your assertion that the Catholic Church is in some way responsible for the spread of aids in Africa is illogical.

You choose to ignore the fact that the Catholic Church also preaches abstinence outside of marriage. So what your saying is the good catholics of Africa choose to ignore the Catholic Churches opinion on promiscuous behaviour and than get a dose of religion when it comes to having intercourse and refuse to wear condoms.
 
So let me get this discussion straight.

The Catholic church dictates that people should not have sex outside marriage.
The Catholic church dictates that people should not use contraception whilst having sex within a married environment.

Therefore, when people deliberately disobey the orders passed down to them from God, via the medium of the Catholic Church, it is the fault of the Catholic church (and ergo, God).

Have I got that right?

I wouldn't be the greatest champion or advocate of the Catholic Church that one could name but that argument sounds more than slightly illogical to me.
 
Thinking about this a bit more, I'm trying to envisage a discussion between priest and AIDS infected parishioner.

AIP: Here faither, ah wiz oot at the ridin' a' weekend every weekend fur the last couple o' years and noo ah've goat masell a dose. No jist the nippers either mind, it's that feckin' AIDS. Whit's that a' aboot?
FKF: Well I hate to say it Jimmy my boy, but we told ye so. We rattled on an' on an' on aboot it till ma gums were sair and ye didnae listen. Sae **** ye!
AIP: Kin ah no jist dae a few Hail Mary's an' Oor Faither's and get masell sorted?
FKF: Disnae work like that. Ye've pissed off the big man good and proper this time fucko. Ye shoulda listened. If it's any consolation, the wee black babies in yon Africa are a' fu o' it an all.
AIP: Aye well, that is a bit of a consolation, bit kin ye no jist tell the big man fae me that ah'm right sorry and see if he'll let me aff? Ah'll no dae it agin. Honest. Know?
FKF: If it wiz jist you, then maybe he wid work a wee wonder or two, but it's every ****. Ah mean, in the name o the wee man, if ye were gauny breck the rules, could you no huv broken twae and flung a rubber oan an all?
AIP: Aw jaysus. Whit um ah gauny tell the bhoys doon the shellic club noo?
FKF: Tell them ye caught it pumpin' weans at the Boys Club. That'll see ye right.


Oh nearly forgot.

:P
 
Numbersix - it is possible to have a discussion about something without immediately resorting to insulting the other person because of differing views.

When I think you are mature enough to do that (i previously believed you were older than 12 ..), I'm happy to debate any subject with you.

Until then.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Hurley@May 14 2008, 01:00 PM
Numbersix - it is possible to have a discussion about something without immediately resorting to insulting the other person because of differing views.

When I think you are mature enough to do that (i previously believed you were older than 12 ..), I'm happy to debate any subject with you.

Until then.
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You accused me of being flippant, I acted accordingly.

Your arguements, like Clivex, are based on predictable media assassination of the Catholic Church - presumably an agenda at work there.

I was not, Clivex, ever claiming to have experience of the church in Africa, so don;t try and drag us off at a tangent to win an argument. I have cited examples of the good the Catholic Church has brought to my community, which you and Andrew conveniently fail to acknowledge as that would be at odds with your attempts on here to discredit the Catholic Church.

You also both conveniently ignore my points about comparatively low rates of AIDS in devoutly Catholic countries such as Europe (I haven't even mentioned South America).

To pin the African AIDS crisis on Catholicism is a preopsterous assertion, and my point about Mandela was that in many circles he is held high up on the list of reasons for the spread of AIDS in South Africa. Look at the corrupt governments on the African Continent for the real reasons, don't jump on tabloid bandwagons because you both struggle to forumlate your own opinions based upon first hand experience.
 
because you both struggle to forumlate your own opinions based upon first hand experience.
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You really are a mess arent you?

I would suggest that the reason that the spread of aids in southern europe has not spread so quickly is beacuse they IGNORE the teachings of your blameless church. I doubt (in my experience) its anything to do with the laughable promotion of chastity

To pin the African AIDS crisis on Catholicism is a preopsterous assertion
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Are you paranoid? When did anyone do that? Whats your problem?

Ill explain this slowly....

Its a contributory factor and under no circumstances can the churches stance be deemed as helpful in combatting the disease

And if you cannot see that...then i give up
 
People's willingness to adhere to the church's view on condoms has little to do with the situation, it is that Catholic sponsored/influenced missionary projects and medical centre's will not hand them out (thus the proclomation to ban Catholics from contributing to Amnesty International, who were).

On one hand you could say that, by not handing them out, they are a contributory factor, on the other hand, if they were not there, it would be considerably worse.
 
:what: Not unless the lady is a catholic and using that "contraption" that Cherie blair refers to!
 
Originally posted by clivex@May 15 2008, 12:44 PM
because you both struggle to forumlate your own opinions based upon first hand experience.
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You really are a mess arent you?

I would suggest that the reason that the spread of aids in southern europe has not spread so quickly is beacuse they IGNORE the teachings of your blameless church. I doubt (in my experience) its anything to do with the laughable promotion of chastity

To pin the African AIDS crisis on Catholicism is a preopsterous assertion
Click to expand...

Are you paranoid? When did anyone do that? Whats your problem?

Ill explain this slowly....

Its a contributory factor and under no circumstances can the churches stance be deemed as helpful in combatting the disease

And if you cannot see that...then i give up
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Erm, methinks you are the one with the problem here Clivex. I have responded to your following comment:

"Helping them whilst dying of AIDS contracted because they were told not to use contraception..... "

Not only is that a very inflamatory thing to say to a Catholic (which I am very porud to say I am) it also seems to very strongly suggest that you are laying the AIDS crisis in Africa very firmly at the door of the Catholic Church.

You seem to think that being Catholic is a black and white thing. That no Catholic can disagree with aspects of Catholicism and still be a Catholic. I have stated twice now that the absence of AIDS epidemic's in Catholic countries in Europe and South America suggests that there are other reasons for the AIDS crisis in Africa. You conveniently ignore this because either you are on a wind up or you are ant-Catholic.

There are moderate Catholics as there are moderate Muslims. I suspect your are the sort of person who tars all Muslims with the brush of fundamentalism, even though Islam is a beautiful religion which is repsonsible for some of the true treasurs mankind has to offer. But looking at the good in a religion is beyond your tabloid journalist brain Clivex I'm afraid.
 
seems to very strongly suggest that you are laying the AIDS crisis in Africa very firmly at the door of the Catholic Church.
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Absolute rubbish and i am not going through that again
 
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