The Derby

Exciting race for sure and a great finish but surely the form is a pile of shite.

Humanitarian got a strange ride. Lost all hope in the first couple of furlongs.
 
I don’t think it looks a bad race at all. They didn’t finish in a heap. They were all running on.
No doubt you’re blaming RM for that ride too!
 
Actually it’s fascinating listening to Jason and Johnny talking about the race. So much sense and they’re not afraid to disagree with others.
 
jinnyj said:
I don’t think it looks a bad race at all. They didn’t finish in a heap. They were all running on.
No doubt you’re blaming RM for that ride too!
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They didn't finish in a heap? Half-a-length ahead of a four-way photo? I think all four 'runners-up', if I can call them that, went a fraction too soon. Heffernan got lucky in that he couldn't go with them because of traffic issues and ended up having his run delayed and it won him the race.

The principals are probably around the 120-121 mark. Good but well short of the better Derby winners.
 
Can we just saviour the moment?

Regardless of ratings it was a cracking race. I'd have loved Madhmoon to do it (or even dear heat).

Aidan's horses looked like the Red Arrows towards the end. :)

Well done Seamie Heffernan very down to earth well deserved.

Could Madhmoon turn the form around in the King George at Ascot? Why not?
 
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Yes I agree it was a cracking race. Maybe some of them did go slightly early but you do what the race dictates and it’s split second timing. It’s such a difficult track to ride, the way the horses handle every step counts.
 
Yes I'm not blaming anyone.

Chris Hayes wasn't to know that Anthony Van was flying behind him at the finish.

He was fighting the battle with the horse nearest to him, that was the right thing to do.

I think he rode a great race. He couldn't have done anything different.

Well done to Tom Marquand who rode the best race he could on Oh This Is Us today as well, even though he finished second to Zaaki. He turned around the form with Bye Bye Hong Kong which I thought he could.

I was critical of him the last day but he couldn't have done any better.
 
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Think that in both the Derby and the oaks people have been very quick to criticise jockeys going too soon. Madhmoon had to go to ensure sir dragonet didn't take his ground. Had he waited that extra half furlong that would be ideal he wouldn't have had a chance of beating sir dragonet, which not unrealistically Hayes felt was the main danger. Moore on sir dragonet of course would have been delighted to drift in and close the door if allowed. I'd guess it's an average renewal.
 
HawkWing said:
Think that in both the Derby and the oaks people have been very quick to criticise jockeys going too soon. Madhmoon had to go to ensure sir dragonet didn't take his ground. Had he waited that extra half furlong that would be ideal he wouldn't have had a chance of beating sir dragonet, which not unrealistically Hayes felt was the main danger. Moore on sir dragonet of course would have been delighted to drift in and close the door if allowed. I'd guess it's an average renewal.
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Agreed. If the winning distances were a nose and a dead heat Chris Hayes could question himself. But a length is a length.

Whatever he done the winner was extending at the finish. I need to watch the re-run but I thought he did well to stay on iMadhmoon after he got bumped round the bend.

I think he's upset for Kevin Prendergast who he would have loved to have won it for. It's understandable but when he watches the race back he'll see many jockeys would have not even dead heated for second.

Good ride Hayes.
 
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jinnyj said:
Yes I agree it was a cracking race. Maybe some of them did go slightly early but you do what the race dictates and it’s split second timing. It’s such a difficult track to ride, the way the horses handle every step counts.
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I agree with all that and with the benefit of replays and hindsight it's easy to say who should have done what and when. But that's the same in every sport. I was never Piggott's biggest fan but how often did he get the timing wrong over the Derby course? Dettori is the closest we'll get to that brilliance.

Piggott also made mistakes but not in many of the very biggest races.

It was a very exciting finish, though. I think I'm right in saying the first five home in the Derby were separated by less than the first five home in the Dash. That's probably a first.
 
It looked an open race and so it proved.
it looked a Ballydoyle benefit and so it proved; five of the first six with less than a length between the top four.
Great for Seamie Heffernan , so long number 2 at AP's having his day in the sun.
Chris Hayes will feel a little done by the way his horse stumbled and Wayne Lordan will forever regret dropping his stick but such is racing.
That the winner also won his maiden at Killarney and Japan his at Listowel shows what you can be up against every day in Ireland.
Aiden has saddled seven winners ridden by six different jockeys, only Joseph rode two winners for his dad; who would have thought that ?

Pedigree buffs will see the dam line traces to Sex Appeal, so the ghost of El Gran Senor and Vincent's quest for a record equalling seventh Derby win has been laid to rest 35 years after the event, 10 years after Vincent's death.
I hope this guy is fertile at stud !
 
edgt said:
It looked an open race and so it proved.
it looked a Ballydoyle benefit and so it proved; five of the first six with less than a length between the top four.
Great for Seamie Heffernan , so long number 2 at AP's having his day in the sun.
Chris Hayes will feel a little done by the way his horse stumbled and Wayne Lordan will forever regret dropping his stick but such is racing.
That the winner also won his maiden at Killarney and Japan his at Listowel shows what you can be up against every day in Ireland.
Aiden has saddled seven winners ridden by six different jockeys, only Joseph rode two winners for his dad; who would have thought that ?

Pedigree buffs will see the dam line traces to Sex Appeal, so the ghost of El Gran Senor and Vincent's quest for a record equalling seventh Derby win has been laid to rest 35 years after the event, 10 years after Vincent's death.
I hope this guy is fertile at stud !
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Broome fifth in that Killarney maiden - Wings of Eagles won his maiden there as well.
 
If Lordan hadn't lost his stick Japan would have won a length. This is the one to take out of the race.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 
Although they all mature at different times and rates, it's worth noting that the winner was the only May foal in the race and, as such, is the youngest of AOB's by more than a month.
 
I've just watched the race again and have a few theories I want to see put to the test over the coming months.

The consensus is that they didn't go fast yet none of the pace-setters were in the hunt late in the day. Could it have been faster than it looked? AVD was off the bit at the top of the hill too, behind SD, which, if the pace wasn't fast, wasn't well positioned either, but neither was Broome who was behind them.

At what point did Japan's jockey lose his whip? I couldn't see it on TV.

Hayes said Madhmoon got lit up by stumbling at the path and maybe did too much from that point. He said he went "50 yards sooner" than he'd have wanted to but it looks like Moore has matched his move on SD. Was that a mistake?

From the top of the hill to the 3f pole AVD was no more than a length behind SD and Madhmoon. As the latter nudged into Circus maximus the latter rolled towards Telecaster and the gap in front of AVD closed so Heffernan had to bie his time and look for an alternative route through. While this was happening, SD and M were going fully three lengths, maybe four, in front of him and dragging Broome and Japan after them. Then AVD got rolling again as he moved to the rail. Maybe having the rail helped him but I think being checked when the others were making their move has won him the race. I think the occasion and/or maybe the lit-up Madhmoon has got to the others and got them going those 50 yards too soon.

I can maybe excuse Broome as he was always struggling to get to them and half a dozen strides after the line he was clear of his group and just ahead of the winner. He does look like a St Leger horse and maybe a future Gold Cup one. I'm not sure about Japan. I might want to watch his whole race again.

Humanitarian - I'm mentioning it because I put it up on the longshot thread - finished even closer than I'd thought. I'm curious when I compare the ride Havlin gave him with the one on Mehdaayih in the Oaks, in which he was never far behind stablemate Anapurna. If the pace was so modest, why did he employ exaggerated hold-up tactics? Was he just hoping to pick up some minor prize money. I reckon the sectionals will tell us he covered the last four furlongs in pretty much the same time as the winner. My eyes might be deceiving but the clock won't.

The race commentator mentioned something about Beggy's riding position as they came downhill. Did Sovereign's saddle slip?


In summary, re the beaten horses:

Circus Maximus didn't take to the track, according to Dettori.
Line Of Duty didn't like the ground, according to Doyle.
Telecaster ran flat, according to Murphy. I suspect he bounced after the Dante. The TV people thought he was too keen.
Sovereign's saddle may have slipped.
Bankok didn't run his race. De Sousa gave a reason but I can't remember what he said.

I reckon run the race another five times and you'll probably get five different results. I hope the figures eventually tell me they're five seriously good horses, as might be Telecaster and Bankok, but I won't be surprised if they struggle when they end up taking on the older horses.
 
I think Telecaster being a fairly big horse ran flat as a result of the three quick runs. I hope it hasn’t bottomed him but I would imagine Morrison will give him some time now. I don’t blame connections as there is only one Derby (Bloodstoock wise most important). I dearly hope that the three quick runs don’t catch up with Sir Dragonet too. He too is a fair size and he’s had to cope with a lot in a very short space of time. He had come on a huge amount since Chester which was no mean feat, as in both previous races it was easy for him and he had to learn to battle and gallop down a hill on fast ground, all of which he coped with. Added to that I hope he (and others aren’t jarred up on the quicker ground). I don’t think North Light ever really recovered. When he ran in the Irish Derby, he never stopped changing legs and looked v uncomfortable.
 
The race reminded me of the year that Sir Percy won but ultimately Dylan Thomas was the best horse by far to come out of the race.Is AVD a brave and courageous battler or did he benefit from a pace collapse.
 
Be interesting to see the sectionals, but I'd doubt there was a pace collapse, with questionable stayer Madhmoon finishing so well in 2nd.
For mine, they finished pretty quickly, and Telecaster - who ran well up to a point - just couldn't keep up with them from about 2 out. Maybe he lacked the speed, or was just plain knackered.
 
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Jim McGrath on Luck On Sunday this morning quoted Ryan Moore on C4 years ago saying Epsom Friday being a more difficult track to ride than Saturday owing to the false rail keeping horses further out the track from a mile out , exaggerating the peaks and troughs of the undulations.
make of that what you will but add in the possibility of over watering for Friday which was burnt off for Derby Day and it might all add up.
On Epsom more than anywhere else though inches matter due to the unique nature of the track.
Aiden often said and Seamie repeated it yesterday " Some horses are made by their Epsom experience while more are finished by it."

P.S. Art and me had a lease in In Bloom for her juvenile hurdling career a few years ago; she too is a descendent of Sex Appeal so Ruby may be correct in calling AVD as an NH sire of the future though her first foal, a Westerner filly has not lit up the world yet after 2 p2p starts for Coiln Bowe.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
According to Simon Rowlands, it looks like I was on the money with Pink Dogwood but he's saying AVD ran the sectionals pretty much spot on.

https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sectional-spotlight

If I get some time this week I might see if I can get a comparison between Pink Dogwood and Kew Gardens.
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What the sectionals don't tell is that Anapurna had much the better trip from her inside draw, and PD was shuffled back, leaving RM with little choice but to start his run from where he did.
But then, if you've convinced yourself he's just a bad jockey? :whistle:
 
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Sectionals are just part of the jigsaw and back up my take on the race and how it unfolded.

Time will also tell what the optimum trip is of PD.
 
reet hard said:
What the sectionals don't tell is that Anapurna had much the better trip from her inside draw, and PD was shuffled back, leaving RM with little choice but to start his run from where he did.
But then, if you've convinced yourself he's just a bad jockey? :whistle:
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Let me put it this way, reet.

When I see Moore on something I've backed it's a bit like having McCoy booked. It should be a positive because he's the go-to guy for trainers and agents who know much more than me but I'm never convinced. I'm not sure why. Is it because I've seen him lose races he should have won? I could say that about every jockey. Maybe because he's got this superstar reputation I'm less forgiving of things not going right in a race but if he's so good he should make sure as little goes wrong as possible.

Honestly, I don't see Dettori getting it wrong anywhere near as often. And again honesty, I probably don't look as hard with other jockeys, maybe because I expect less of them. But at Epsom, I want to see my jockeys ride tactically like Piggott - and I was always wary of Piggott in anything other than the top races because he always had his own agenda - by being no more than a few lengths off the lead and one off the rail.

Watching the Oaks, I was convinced Anapurna was getting a better tactical ride than Pink Dogwood. Circumstances didn't dictate that; jockey decision-making dictated it. Moore could have sat on Anapurna's withers but presumably felt he had the best filly in the race so it wouldn't really have mattered too much. He probably still felt he was fine when he swept through to lead. Take Anapurna out of the race and he'd have been right. Or maybe that should say put a different jockey on Anapurna and he'd probably have been right. I remain convinced that a better tactical ride and PD would have won tidily. And I backed Anapurna.

I'm not trying to be controversial, in all honesty. It's a forum and I'm just expressing an opinion. In this case, it appears that the sectionals are supporting my opinion (unlike in the Derby).
 
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