The Great Man

[edgt]

Two men with the common touch.
Trevor bought a farm near me in 1992.
There was an old hen hut in a paddock nearest the house, the roof long since gone.
Attempts to remove it were stopped by Trevor , who had it re roofed, stone faced and fenced off for hens, a source for fresh eggs.
" When you have an egg, you have a meal " he explained.
His first Irish trained winner was appropriately called "The Hen Hut " .
JP has a similar story for Heads On The Ground , recalling a coin toss with a ticket tout; Mister Donovan named after a heart surgeon ; Pat Hartigan , an All Ireland winning hurler among others.

 

[Slim]

No I didnt say he should be able to. I said he can and if most people could they would and I don't blame him for doing it. Has he broken any laws ?

What do you mean ordinary people do not get to opt out of public obligation.

Are we talking about ordinary people who refuse to go to work and live off the state ? And before you twist it to be people with disabilities or people who genuinely can't find work. Im talking people who choose to live on benefits.

Are we talking about some of the lads ive worked with who earn up to £700-£1000 per week but claim they still live with their mom and dad so the Mrs can still claim full benefits at their real address.

Or are we talking about all the self employed lot with cash in hand jobs and good accountants ?

Or people just working part time because the universal credits will top them up.

Or are we talking small businesses and all the fiddles that go on there give the wife a job there as fart monitor for 12.5k.

Or all the money laundering businesses just brazenly operating down our high streets plain as day.

But let's get something straight. It's the government that allows all that to happen so these ordinary people are all playing the system the best they can the same as JP has done. If you teach all the groundworkers amd plasterers how to apply for Swiss citizenship they wouldn't even blink if it saved them few quid.

What ordinary people are you talking about ?

The likes of me that's who Employee for 30 years worked my arse off paid everything I should and for what ? So I can feel like i did my bit whilst everyone else takes the piss. You might read about it but I'm talking about my life. You get no more working class than a black country, foundry man and shop steward.

JP and his ilk are very special people. You have to be special to make that sort of wealth. If not everyone would have a billion. That's life, its a heirachy special people go to the top. Ordinary folk like me are worker bees.

Governments are failing the people all around the world. Look at where tax payers money has gone over the past few decades. Things like bank bail outs PPE contracts, Look at the mess of HS2. Birmingham Council. Pick anything you like would you trust these fuckers with JP's money. I wouldnt have a clue about your Irish politicians but f%*& me Boris, Starmer, Sunak I wouldnt trust them to run a bath.

It's a shit situation World wide atm but if you think people like JP are the bad guys then you are wide of the mark.

Danny, you write essays, presumably from the heart but don't mistake it for intellect.

 

[Slim]

John Paul McManus was a bond holder in the Irish banks. Can you all save me the bullshit essays when you've no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Danny]

Danny, you write essays, presumably from the heart but don't mistake it for intellect.

Oh I dont. If I were intelligent id be a billionaire not paying tax and donating to and good causes I saw fit.

 

[Danny]

John Paul McManus was a bond holder in the Irish banks. Can you all save me the bullshit essays when you've no idea what you're talking about.

Are you suggesting ( as I dont know ) that Jp lost money in the banking crisis then politicians offered him his money back and he didn't say no ?

Wow.

Waste your time hating the the rich Slim. I always go into discussions willing to lose and learn. You've taught me nothing here I might not be intelligent, in fact I know I'm not but I know the difference between an intelligent argument and boring rhetoric.

It surprises me from you as normally id say your quite an intelligent guy.

Gotta get to work gotta pay my bit. How about you ?

 

[Slim]

Are you suggesting ( as I dont know ) that Jp lost money in the banking crisis then politicians offered him his money back and he didn't say no ?

Wow.

Waste your time hating the the rich Slim. I always go into discussions willing to lose and learn. You've taught me nothing here I might not be intelligent, in fact I know I'm not but I know the difference between an intelligent argument and boring rhetoric.

It surprises me from you as normally id say your quite an intelligent guy.

Gotta get to work gotta pay my bit. How about you ?

I stopped reading after the first sentence. You clearly don't know what a bond holder during the crisis was.

 

[Slim]

Gotta get to work gotta pay my bit. How about you ?

You should be ashamed of this post.

 

[pawras]

Entertaining.

JP has availed himself of the IRE rules and if he's not resident for more than 183 days he doesn't have to pay the 40%+ IRE tax.
Instead he's resident in Switzerland paying 22%.
The gov should reduce the upper tax rate then people wouldn't be inclined to move elsewhere and pay less.
The bleating subjective opinions of others mean nothing.

 

[Ian_Davies]

It always saddens me when two of my very favourite children feud.

Slim seems a passionate crusader for justice, his aversion to a tax exile and distaste for those who fawn over the charitable crumbs he lets slip from his table is understandable, but it is a subject he returns to a rather lot, when there are better things - horses, bets, women and, obviously best of all, chocolate hob nobs - to discuss.

Danny is a self professed working man with zero resentment towards wealthy tax exiles, you could say his respect for them borders on the deferential, but you could equally say it speaks to a man gloriously free of envy and thus at perpetual peace with himself and his lot in life, or at least striving for this utopian goal.

And his writing is to be admired - his powers of articulacy seem self taught and ever evolving.

Two Titans of these Great Virtual Halls Of Debate, but when they fall out their spiritual parent weeps (and in his grief temporarily forgets where he put the biscuit barrel).

And it's a very nice biscuit barrel - Walsworth shoplifted it from Harrods in 1968, or so he claims.

 

[Panoramic5048]

The government being incompetent is one of the poorest arguments put forward by tax-exile sympathisers. If that is the justification, then why don’t we all just stop paying tax?

Most people can’t just stop paying tax because the system is designed to collect from them automatically. So the real difference for most people who are unhappy with the system is not morality but means. Government incompetence is a solid argument for extricating yourself from the system.

It would be nice if people stopped paying it en masse, after all, you can't vote your way out of the uniparty. But remember you're dealing with a population that stayed at home when they were told to, wore a mask when they were told to, and took multiple doses of an experimental product when they were told to. Unless the government tells them to stop paying tax, I don't think it would happen.

No limit on how much tax you can pay, though. The amount quoted is what you need to pay; feel free to add on a % as a tip.

 

[Danny]

My main problem with it is I think its a waste of time pointing out that JP like many other rich business men has within the law found a way to pay less tax. One of the only sensible things Trump said was about him using the tax loopholes and said to was it Hilary if you don't like it change the law.

Slim said something about me suggesting convential rules don't matter if cheque is big enough. Do they not matter if the cheque is too small ? Its either a moral standpoint or is not. Tax evasion of any sort from getting a clever accountant to cook your books or buying the bootlegged fags from the Bob shop. In it's way is all tax evasion. If you single out billionaires then it's just a matter of scale ones bothered about.

If you think if all the billionaires paid their bit that the world would be a better place for the working class I'd doubt that very much. Slim's right in that I'm ignorant to a lot of it, i dont tend to watch T.v or take much notice of the news and certainly have any knowledge of how billionaires operate. To do so would just be a waste of my time and energy on things outside of my control.

No matter what, I think time is better spent looking yourself in the mirror and thinking what do I do wrong, what can I do better. Personal responsibility and accountability will for me always be the way to a better world that's for paupers and billionaires alike. People seem reluctant to lower themselves to make very small improvements but very small improvements add up. Thing seems to be these days though if your not going to be applauded for your efforts or get a million likes or followers then it's not worth doing. If you're waiting for Politicians and billionaires to change, good luck.

When I was out walking I saw some women out picking litter. I said to them you do that for free they said yes I told them they were angels they looked at me like I was crazy but it's those little things that go unnoticed that make the difference.

I dream of the day where I reach that level of goodness.

As for the feud I think Slims a good egg in general. Always thought of him as full of unrealised potential if I'm honest for some reason he makes me feel frustrated in the same way as watching someone unsuccessfully try to thread the eye of a needle. Almost getting it but not quite.

 

[barjon]

“would you sleep with me for a million pounds?” he asked
“Er, yes I think so” she replied
“How about for a fiver then” he said
“ you must be joking, what do you think I am” she said.
“ we all know what your are, madam, we’re just haggling about the price”

 

[Steeplechasing]

*shouting from the touchline* Hey, Slim! Play the ball, not the man!

Calling an honest man down for a perceived lack of intellect because he doesn't agree with you is hardly egalitarian.

 

[Slim]

Entertaining.

JP has availed himself of the IRE rules and if he's not resident for more than 183 days he doesn't have to pay the 40%+ IRE tax.
Instead he's resident in Switzerland paying 22%.
The gov should reduce the upper tax rate then people wouldn't be inclined to move elsewhere and pay less.
The bleating subjective opinions of others mean nothing.

The government should lower the tax rate for John Paul McManus. What a great idea.

 

[Slim]

Most people can’t just stop paying tax because the system is designed to collect from them automatically. So the real difference for most people who are unhappy with the system is not morality but means. Government incompetence is a solid argument for extricating yourself from the system.

It would be nice if people stopped paying it en masse, after all, you can't vote your way out of the uniparty. But remember you're dealing with a population that stayed at home when they were told to, wore a mask when they were told to, and took multiple doses of an experimental product when they were told to. Unless the government tells them to stop paying tax, I don't think it would happen.

No limit on how much tax you can pay, though. The amount quoted is what you need to pay; feel free to add on a % as a tip.

I'm glad someone brought up COVID. Do you know that the virus was caused by JP McManus so he could host the centenary Ryder Cup. He's cashing in on Adare Manor after the event is over.

 

[Slim]

My main problem with it is I think its a waste of time pointing out that JP like many other rich business men has within the law found a way to pay less tax. One of the only sensible things Trump said was about him using the tax loopholes and said to was it Hilary if you don't like it change the law.

Slim said something about me suggesting convential rules don't matter if cheque is big enough. Do they not matter if the cheque is too small ? Its either a moral standpoint or is not. Tax evasion of any sort from getting a clever accountant to cook your books or buying the bootlegged fags from the Bob shop. In it's way is all tax evasion. If you single out billionaires then it's just a matter of scale ones bothered about.

If you think if all the billionaires paid their bit that the world would be a better place for the working class I'd doubt that very much. Slim's right in that I'm ignorant to a lot of it, i dont tend to watch T.v or take much notice of the news and certainly have any knowledge of how billionaires operate. To do so would just be a waste of my time and energy on things outside of my control.

No matter what, I think time is better spent looking yourself in the mirror and thinking what do I do wrong, what can I do better. Personal responsibility and accountability will for me always be the way to a better world that's for paupers and billionaires alike. People seem reluctant to lower themselves to make very small improvements but very small improvements add up. Thing seems to be these days though if your not going to be applauded for your efforts or get a million likes or followers then it's not worth doing. If you're waiting for Politicians and billionaires to change, good luck.

When I was out walking I saw some women out picking litter. I said to them you do that for free they said yes I told them they were angels they looked at me like I was crazy but it's those little things that go unnoticed that make the difference.

I dream of the day where I reach that level of goodness.

As for the feud I think Slims a good egg in general. Always thought of him as full of unrealised potential if I'm honest for some reason he makes me feel frustrated in the same way as watching someone unsuccessfully try to thread the eye of a needle. Almost getting it but not quite.

There seems to be a deviation between the argument people think I’m making and what I actually believe. I don’t care what the tax system is or whom it favours. My problem is with the fawning over JP as some great benefactor, when in reality it’s a sliver of the money he has saved by being a tax exile. Most people in Ireland who praise him not only don’t know what the Glackin Report is, they also don’t know that it flat out calls John Paul McManus a liar.

 

[Oxford]

So if you really have strong feelings about an owner ( not just JP ) does that mean you would refuse to bet on their horses out of principle... or by not betting on of their horses you really thought would win, be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. For me it it was an owner I had complete contempt for then I wouldn't bet on their horse but if it was an owner I disliked strongly then I would still bet on their horse if I thought it would win.

 

[tomj]

I think we should try to see these things in their totality, not on the basis of one or two examples which are then used to categorise the whole system. On tax, I am content to pay tax because it funds the needs of our society, our fellow citizens. We need hospitals, schools, roads, a police force, social services, support for those in need,financial regulation, foreign embassies, etc. It is what being civilized means.

The "common man" never got anything by touching his cap to the boss. It all had to won after a collective struggle.

Public expenditure was given a bad name, which I think is wrong. We should be able to be proud of it and what we spend it on. Of course, there are always things that we get wrong and have to improve and are indeed sometimes scandalous failures, but I'd rather have it, controlled by a democratically elected Government, with all its faults, than not have it at all. The media thrives on scandals and negative stories.

Look what has happened to the "crown jewels" of our economy once they were sold off for private ownership - the water industry being a current example. Margaret Thatcher said that it was necessary as it would enable the capital to be raised to modernise it, because the Government could not. The capital was raised, over 85 billion and counting, but most of that went back to shareholders and the 70% foreign ownership of the water companies. The rest for improvements came from consumers in raised water bills. Let us be honest, there cannot be a "competitive market" in water supply. In the world, only England and Chile have a 100% privatised water industry. Scottish and Welsh water isn't.

I think that damning paying tax because we are made aware of such things as a) Government expenditure that has been wasteful or b) because a minority of people abuse the benefit system, etc, is an error.

I agree that it is not appropriate to respect someone simply because they are wealthy. Nor do I think that because we live in an unjust world (I think it is indeed unjust and is stacked in favour of those with wealth) we should give up on our own efforts to make the world a better place where we can do so.

We should, we non millionaires(!), after a hundred years of democracy, be able to find common ground amongst ourselves for all our interests, and try not to "talk past" one another, which often means that we don't really listen. I find it as hard to do as anyone.

As for the "Great Man", well, I can think of many others in horseracing, etc, Michael O'Leary, Denise Coates, etc. All the same arguments may apply, but should we be distracted from the need to ensure that they pay a whack of tax to support the society from which their wealth is drawn? I remember (showing my age) when Brian London (a boxer some may recall) complained about the 96 pence in a pound he had to pay on his earnings. Those were the days...My dad used to say,' "I'd love to pay 96p in the pound."

I know it's Talking Horses, so apologies.