The Ground at Limerick
- Thread starter harry
- Start date
EC1
On a break
times like one too Harry..Fontwell the other day was about 55 lengths per mile slow..really bad..Limerick after 2 races is looking like 80+ lengths per mile slow...unreal
:lol:
I wonder how many UK jumps courses would race on that?
Well done for keeping the meeting on.
edgt
Senior Jockey
Limerick raced for the Corporate bookings more than anything else.
What is really maddening is the fact that Patrickswell p2p used be run on that farm in the 1970s and 80s and the going was always good whatever the weather.
The viewing was excellent as the course had a natural viewing area.
Whatever they did when landscaping the land for the new racecourse they got it badly badly wrong.
What is really maddening is the fact that Patrickswell p2p used be run on that farm in the 1970s and 80s and the going was always good whatever the weather.
The viewing was excellent as the course had a natural viewing area.
Whatever they did when landscaping the land for the new racecourse they got it badly badly wrong.
EC1
On a break
Usually ireland has the edge when it comes to "Heavy" ground..but its got competition now..from Wetherby.
The slowest ground this season was this Limerick course at 105 lengths slow per mile. Today..wetherby equalled it with also 105 lengths per mile slow.
Its fair to say Wetherby now has the heaviest recorded going in England. this season People talk about uttoxeter getting bad..yes it does....93 slow at the last meeting...i thought that would hold the English record...but its been broken.
When we look at Hvy in the form book..its not really descriptive enough..there are horses that handle heavy..wouldn't have handled this sort of heavy. The average Heavy recorded at all tracks is about 60 lengths per mile slow..this today and at Limerick was different gravy to that.
Heavy should be split into 3 gradings really...it covers a slowness variation of about 50 lengths per mile from heavy to unraceable.
The slowest ground this season was this Limerick course at 105 lengths slow per mile. Today..wetherby equalled it with also 105 lengths per mile slow.
Its fair to say Wetherby now has the heaviest recorded going in England. this season People talk about uttoxeter getting bad..yes it does....93 slow at the last meeting...i thought that would hold the English record...but its been broken.
When we look at Hvy in the form book..its not really descriptive enough..there are horses that handle heavy..wouldn't have handled this sort of heavy. The average Heavy recorded at all tracks is about 60 lengths per mile slow..this today and at Limerick was different gravy to that.
Heavy should be split into 3 gradings really...it covers a slowness variation of about 50 lengths per mile from heavy to unraceable.
Last edited:
I see you say 'England', EC1. Gary O'Brien today described heavy ground at Limerick as being in a class of its own, "the Irish equivalent of Ffos Las". Have you any readings for this track?
On the general point, I completely agree with you. The French going descriptions are better than the English-language ones which completely lack an official description for holding, tacky ground.
On the general point, I completely agree with you. The French going descriptions are better than the English-language ones which completely lack an official description for holding, tacky ground.
EC1
On a break
yes ,,forgot about Ffos Las..i've got no timings from there Grey..mainly due to the fact its rained when we have had a meeting there which usually puts me off rating the meeting..i know its bad there..was just surprised that wetherby = limerick 105 today
its probably worse at ffos las..when it don't **** it down there i might get some measures
EC1
On a break
I checked back on Ffos Las this winter Grey..its not the worst ground this winter. At this moment on time the record holder for the slowest ground encountered this winter is ...Exeter..14 feb. This meeting now holds the record of English + Irish tracks this winter. I previously thought south of -105 was getting near to abandonment..but Exeter weighed in with an incredible 119 lengths slow per mile.
So when people say..oh its slower on Irish tracks...no it isn't. Exeter is the top of the pops.
Why is this important for punters?..well the average going for heavy is 60 lengths per mile slow..and yet...under the same going description..we have ground that can get another 50 lbs slower. When you consider that Good ground is 0..and average heavy is -60..and in between those we have numerous going descriptions to break it up..and yet when it gets to heavy ground..no more going descriptions.
You could for instance see a horse and in its form line its got a heavy ground win..but thats only -55 heavy it acted on..today it might be running on a lot slower than "heavy" type..ie a -90..and the horse not appreciate it as there is so much difference in the heavy descriptions. Its akin to a horse that wants good ground..actually running on soft and punter thinks..oh i'm not having that today..ground is against it..but will happily bet a horse on -60 heavy when it will hate it as its actually 30lb slower than that...the same difference in softness
Its handy knowing what the real ground conditions are...so if you record them yourself its a decent edge..because there is no risk they will ever put true going descriptions in the form book.
Just a tip there to help you guys get an edge..you're welcome
i've worked out over twigs you need something like
Good
Yielding
G/S
Soft
Sft/Hvy
Hvy
V Heavy
Ext Heavy
Bottomless
so 3 more descriptions to break "Heavy" down into something that gives a clearer record of what a horse actually can act on
So when people say..oh its slower on Irish tracks...no it isn't. Exeter is the top of the pops.
Why is this important for punters?..well the average going for heavy is 60 lengths per mile slow..and yet...under the same going description..we have ground that can get another 50 lbs slower. When you consider that Good ground is 0..and average heavy is -60..and in between those we have numerous going descriptions to break it up..and yet when it gets to heavy ground..no more going descriptions.
You could for instance see a horse and in its form line its got a heavy ground win..but thats only -55 heavy it acted on..today it might be running on a lot slower than "heavy" type..ie a -90..and the horse not appreciate it as there is so much difference in the heavy descriptions. Its akin to a horse that wants good ground..actually running on soft and punter thinks..oh i'm not having that today..ground is against it..but will happily bet a horse on -60 heavy when it will hate it as its actually 30lb slower than that...the same difference in softness
Its handy knowing what the real ground conditions are...so if you record them yourself its a decent edge..because there is no risk they will ever put true going descriptions in the form book.
Just a tip there to help you guys get an edge..you're welcome
i've worked out over twigs you need something like
Good
Yielding
G/S
Soft
Sft/Hvy
Hvy
V Heavy
Ext Heavy
Bottomless
so 3 more descriptions to break "Heavy" down into something that gives a clearer record of what a horse actually can act on
Last edited:
EC1
On a break
yes.its bloody slow .its worth watching a couple of those exeter races..it can't do hosses any good ..you can see they aren't confident on it
when people look at Newbury on Saturday and think..oh that looks hard work...it was "only" 48 lengths pm slow..which on the universal scale of ground softness..is really Sft/Hvy...it was relatively fast
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Or just under 1 1/2 furlongs per 8 furlongs or slow by 292 metres per 1,600 metres.
Martin
Colin Phillips
At the Start
........oh! what a gift to be ambidextrous, Martin!
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,012
EC1.......I'm surmising from the above that you must use some sort of scale for Ground?
By that, I mean that Good-to-Soft will not be a fixed number (e.g. 25L 'slow'), but it will be a range (e.g. between 20-35L 'slow')? Assuming that is the case, can you share the table/scale you usually work with, to determine the Going?
By that, I mean that Good-to-Soft will not be a fixed number (e.g. 25L 'slow'), but it will be a range (e.g. between 20-35L 'slow')? Assuming that is the case, can you share the table/scale you usually work with, to determine the Going?
EC1
On a break
still working on the scale..but these are the mid points..so if you just split the difference between descrptions you will get a range that fits that description. Faster end is estimated as i have used all this seasons results..which doesn't have much fast in it...yet
Lengths per mile +/-
Firm +26
GF +15
Good 0
G/S -23
Soft -38
Sft/Hvy -45
Hvy -60
V Heavy -75
Ex Heavy -90
Bottomless -105 or worse
so G/S is something like -15 to -30..ie halfway points
You could then shove in Good(GS)....G/S(Sft)..type of descriptions if you wanted to narrow the bands more.
I tend to just look at the number now as i've got used to where they sit
EC1
On a break
well we get chance to flavour some of this famous Ffos las ground today..the meeting only just got away with it and the ground was described by Richard Holies as absolutely saturated..so fair to say..this is probably as bad as it gets here.
Well ..after the race it won't be competing with other tracks for the worse ground i don't think. First race time suggests something like 77 lengths slow..which using the scale is V Heavy. We've seen worse. Just yesterday Fairyhouse won the weekend slowest ground award with a 99 slow surface.
Well ..after the race it won't be competing with other tracks for the worse ground i don't think. First race time suggests something like 77 lengths slow..which using the scale is V Heavy. We've seen worse. Just yesterday Fairyhouse won the weekend slowest ground award with a 99 slow surface.