The Topham
- Thread starter Bobbyjo
- Start date
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
No they don't - shocking stuff, particularly from In The High Grass. The re-run was surprising too and the comments from one of the BBC commentators.
Hope they do reduce the safety limit of the race. I had a post typed up with regard to the reduction in fatalities over the big fences since they re-introduced the Grand Sefton to the big fences but that seems a bit irrelevant now
Hope they do reduce the safety limit of the race. I had a post typed up with regard to the reduction in fatalities over the big fences since they re-introduced the Grand Sefton to the big fences but that seems a bit irrelevant now
Horrific, upsetting falls. I only got home in time just to see the replay, and I wish I hadn't. In The High Grass was a clear fatality, and in the replay you could see him kicking on the ground, yet the commentators still didn't seem to acknowledge it and simply made a throwaway, "hope the horses are all OK" comment. It was pretty obvious they weren't.
They went at a ridiculous pace, especially early on, and I do so hope that the jocks in the National are sensible over the early fences when jockeying to get a place.
I'm on the verge of not actually watching the big race tomorrow after today's viewing though.
They went at a ridiculous pace, especially early on, and I do so hope that the jocks in the National are sensible over the early fences when jockeying to get a place.
I'm on the verge of not actually watching the big race tomorrow after today's viewing though.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Bit harsh Purr - the National is a great race and I doubt people wouldn't watch races round Cheltenham due to the fatal falls there in recent years.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Apologies if that sounded heartless - it wasn't meant to and a few years ago maybe I'd have been of the same opinion, it still turns my stomach but it's something i've learnt racing needs to address where possible.
Yep, wouldn't disagree. Remember the furore about the 4 miler a few years ago and the contribution allegedly made to the fatalities by amateur jockeys. I'd say the amateurs yesterday, gave the professionals a bit of a lesson. Having said that, winning is imperative (always has been, and always will be) and with that pressure comes demands and the need to take risks. No ones suggesting that jockeys set out to crash horses, and lets be honest, if there's one person on the planet who has more to risk and least to gain from a crash, it's the guy on top. Not sure what the answer is
They did go too fast for a crowded field, tho I don't think the pile-ups were the problem today. They usually try to run a bit more spread out in the big one - hope today gives them the wake- up -
but it looked today as if awkward landings pure and simple were the problem, ie just bad luck.
Strange it was Irish horses too which were fatalies as they are normally more used to unusual fences.
I think the ground is riding Good on visual evidence - ie faster than stated or anticipated, what to speed stats tell us?
but it looked today as if awkward landings pure and simple were the problem, ie just bad luck.
Strange it was Irish horses too which were fatalies as they are normally more used to unusual fences.
I think the ground is riding Good on visual evidence - ie faster than stated or anticipated, what to speed stats tell us?
It's always one of the hardest tracks around to get a handle on, not least of all because they seem to shift the running rails more than most. Alot of the races are also probably stronger than what they're offically advertised as making the allocation of an appropriate par hit and miss.
The evidence of times point to it drying out during racing and increasingly quickly too. Without adjusting for weight;
Pierrot Lunaire was 5.80 secs faster than Binocular
Pettifour was 2.50 secs faster than Blazing Bailey
Oedipe was 4.40 secs faster than Our Vic though Big Bucks was 3.10 secs slower
Gwanko was 7.27 secs faster than Christy Beamish
My first sweep of the times points to the ground quickening up significantly from about 3.00 o'clock onwards and continued to dry out there after
The evidence of times point to it drying out during racing and increasingly quickly too. Without adjusting for weight;
Pierrot Lunaire was 5.80 secs faster than Binocular
Pettifour was 2.50 secs faster than Blazing Bailey
Oedipe was 4.40 secs faster than Our Vic though Big Bucks was 3.10 secs slower
Gwanko was 7.27 secs faster than Christy Beamish
My first sweep of the times points to the ground quickening up significantly from about 3.00 o'clock onwards and continued to dry out there after
I felt that too.
I went to a meeting a few weeks ago which aimed to get as many of those conducting research on horses in the uk together as we could to discuss the possibilities for conducting some interdisciplinary research. Anyway, there was a distinct anti-racing bias to which I defended my corner as best I could. Watching that today pricked my conscience.
I've just watched the Topham. Not the worst I've ever seen but far from the best. My first thoughts were whether the quicker ground and faster pace were factors.
However, beyond that, I've noticed in recent years that what will be the fourth (and twentieth) fence tomorrow has caused more falls in recent times. I wonder if after the big ditch the fence before, horses and riders miscalculate the obstacle. The fence caused problems both today and yesterday.
A wider question is the quality of jumping itself - are horses jumping worse than say twenty years ago ? There seemed to be a lot of mistakes over and above those which caused falls. Softer ground in recent years (with more horses pulled up and slower-run races) has perhaps masked this to some degree.
My thought is 12-14 finishers tomorrow - my hope is the safe return of all human and equine participants.
However, beyond that, I've noticed in recent years that what will be the fourth (and twentieth) fence tomorrow has caused more falls in recent times. I wonder if after the big ditch the fence before, horses and riders miscalculate the obstacle. The fence caused problems both today and yesterday.
A wider question is the quality of jumping itself - are horses jumping worse than say twenty years ago ? There seemed to be a lot of mistakes over and above those which caused falls. Softer ground in recent years (with more horses pulled up and slower-run races) has perhaps masked this to some degree.
My thought is 12-14 finishers tomorrow - my hope is the safe return of all human and equine participants.
That was what instinct from just watching told me, glad to hear it confirmed
I was watching on BBC and didn't really see the fall of ITHG, and that of TTS was in the distance, it sounds as though the camera work on RUK must have been much closer to the action or something as this thread has surprised me... I saw a lot of amazing tumbles but nothing that made me more uncomfortable than one always is watching racing over the GN brush fences. It's still a very tough course.
That was what instinct from just watching told me, glad to hear it confirmed
I was watching on BBC and didn't really see the fall of ITHG, and that of TTS was in the distance, it sounds as though the camera work on RUK must have been much closer to the action or something as this thread has surprised me... I saw a lot of amazing tumbles but nothing that made me more uncomfortable than one always is watching racing over the GN brush fences. It's still a very tough course. [/b][/quote]
I watched the replay on BBC as I got home from work just as the race was in its closing stages.
They showed the fall of ITHG not once, but twice - they went back and replayed the fence again, and commented on the "pearler" of a fall he had - it was a shocker.
Then he could clearly be seen lying on the floor as the camera panned on to the next fence.
I don't know what they showed during the live action, but during the replay there was some real horror stories on show.
WelshWizard1973
At the Start
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2008
- Messages
- 31
Agree with all the post's about the regretable fatalities in the Topham and hope we don't see the same in the National tomorrow.
However, I can see quite a few people slagging off the professional jockeys about going too fast on this thread so can only assume you are all ex pro jocks to make that opinion?!! :suspect:
However, I can see quite a few people slagging off the professional jockeys about going too fast on this thread so can only assume you are all ex pro jocks to make that opinion?!! :suspect:
rorydelargy
At the Start
It's surely unfair to blame the jockeys ~ it's not like they went so fast that they couldn't last home, as demonstrated by the fact that Irish Raptor was running on strongly at the death. The fact is that races at this trip on the National course on good ground favour speed. It's possible that the rebuilding of the fences since Thursday or the bright sunshine might have been contributory factors. I'll reiterate that Aintree sees horses able to reach faster speeds that most courses and can see some ugly falls, on all courses including the hurdles track. I don't have recent stats but I know that from 1995 - 2000 (the year Strong Promise and Lake Kariba were killed in the Martell Cup) there were 26 fatalities at the Grand National meeting, many of them extremely talented performers and even exceptional jumpers like the aforementioned Strong Promise and One Man.
Most of the field couldn't cope with the pace of today's race over the big fences, which was so fast that falls, and even casualties, were always likely.
Jockeys need to be more sensible over the first few fences until their horse gets a chance to settle. True, they are trying to win a race but they are also trying to bring their horses back safe and sound.
Jockeys need to be more sensible over the first few fences until their horse gets a chance to settle. True, they are trying to win a race but they are also trying to bring their horses back safe and sound.
I agree with the comment about the 4th and 20th fence in National terms, its always been a very difficult one in my opinion. I remember Smiths Band being killed at that one, and Rinus misjudging it the year he was pelting along. Always a very misleadingly difficult obstacle. In the void national, the two front runners...Howe Street and Sure Metal went there too IIRC
rorydelargy
At the Start
....and every year the jockeys get a lecture from the powers that be about "being sensible" but it doesn't have any effect, because the jockeys who are sensible end up tailed off.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
They did indeed Bobbyjo - one of the more bizarre events in the National - both were in space when they came down and about 5 lengths clear of the third horse.
Andrew Thornton on The Morning Line didn't help matters, along the lines of bomb it to the Melling Road and then take a pull. Hardly sensible riding now is it?
Andrew Thornton on The Morning Line didn't help matters, along the lines of bomb it to the Melling Road and then take a pull. Hardly sensible riding now is it?
rorydelargy
At the Start
It is if you actually want to win.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
I thought he meant the other Melling Road :shy: