Things Are Not Always Quite As They Seem

Originally posted by BrianH@Jan 17 2006, 02:03 PM
So let's expand it - what do you think about a 17 year old boy and his 15 year old girlfriend having sex, and the boy being placed on the register? Which is exactly what happens when he is found out.
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A 17 year old boy wouldn't be in a position of trust or authority so I think that's an entirely different kettle of fish. However I do believe more should be done about under age sex in this country and a few more men ought to be prosecuted for it. Girls under the age of 16 are children and it's about time more was done to protect them. I'm going to sound like such an old woman now but the attitudes towards sex and the lack of morality amongst teenagers is quite shocking.
 
Oh c'mon, that is different and you know it! For starters, any teacher having sexual relations with one of their pupils is an abuse of status and responsibility. The fact that there is also ten years between them also sets this example far apart from your example above, especially when those 19 years between a 15 year old and a 34 year old are a much wider gulf than say, between a 30 year old and a 49 year old in terms of physical, mental and sexual maturity. EDIT - bloody hell, I've just realised he was 34 at the time, for some reason I thought he was 25!! That really is an abuse of power.

Tell me Brian, do you really believe that (as you said previously) as this couple have been together for 23 years this man will not succumb to any temptation due to the longevity of his partnership? Also, would you be happy if it transpired that your 15 year old daughter was having sexual relations with one of her teachers? Would you then be happy for him to go on teaching other adolescent girls, knowing that as a responsible adult in a postion of authority he had already abused that position by seducing an under age girl? After all, if he was tempted once....
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jan 17 2006, 02:13 PM
Oh c'mon, that is different and you know it!
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Of course it's different. I wasn't suggesting otherwise - I asked for views on the fact that the 17 year old boy would be put on the register, where he stays for life.
 
A 34 year old "hanging out" with a 15 year old is an unequal and inappropriate relationship, being in a position of authority over her makes it even more inappropriate and unequal. The fact that the relationship actually worked is as surprising as it is irrelevant. The man has abused his position of authority to persue his lustful desires and should never be allowed in a position of authority involving children again.

A 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old is just naughty. I would imagine there would need to be very extreme circumstances before charges are brought. The scenario in terms of maturity and the terms of the relationship are entirely different.
 
This is a good debate.

I can tell you that a friend of mine asked a girl out on the day she left school. He'd fancied her for a while. Does that make him a paedophile?

Is the situation altered by the fact they've been married over 20 years now?

I can also tell you that at the age of 25/26, I fancied two or three girls. I don't know what age they were exactly. They might have been 15 or 16. Does that make me a paedophile? Does the fact that they looked 18 or 19 make any difference to my fancying them?
 
Originally posted by Melendez@Jan 17 2006, 02:19 PM
A 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old is just naughty. I would imagine there would need to be very extreme circumstances before charges are brought.
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Melendez, it's not a question of charges, though there are many instances of this happening. Most cases result in a caution - which does, however, result in a criminal record. Every one of them is added to the sexual offences register. I believe this to be wrong - which is the point of this thread. It wasn't created to defend William Humble - it was to give yet another example of the danger of all encompassing legislation. Not unusually on this forum the emotional reaction takes over from the intellectual reaction.
 
You can be a sex offender without being a paedophile. Would you have acted had you known the girl was 15? If so, potential sex offender, if not, dirty minded old man.
 
Under today's legislation I would be classified as a sexual offender. My first experience was when I was 14, and so the 17 year old girl was the one guilty of a crime. My second experience was when I was 15 and so was the girl. Fortunately the police and other authorities didn't find out.
 
SL, I for one never said he was happily married and so wouldn't stray. Chances are, he may possibly one day, but do you think it likely that it will be for a minor? I know I don't.
 
Brian,

I would agree with you, there are sex offences that should not result in the person being put on a sex offenders list. Your original example is not one of these occasions. Your second is.
 
Originally posted by Griffin@Jan 17 2006, 02:12 PM
I'm going to sound like such an old woman now but the attitudes towards sex and the lack of morality amongst teenagers is quite shocking.
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You don't sound at all like an old woman, Griffin. You are right and I worry when I see/hear kids' attitudes.

I conducted a survey among 14/15yos and they were almost unanimous in claiming they weren't influenced by their popular media. Obviously they are influenced tremendously by it but they don't see it that way.

There is also a culture here (presumably in most parts of the UK) that girls 'celebrate' their 16th birthday by losing their virginity (those that still have it) and they don't seem to care to whom.
 
In this case, I feel that the intellectual reaction is splitting hairs, however, [so it is entirely reasonable to consider the emotional reaction] - for example, by comparing two blatantly different circumstances & declaring them to be equal, such as in the case of a couple of kids, aged 15 & 17, to an adult in a position of authority aged 34, and a child aged 15. Yes, I do realise that in the eyes of the law these cases are both illegal but some logic and reason should be applied when comparing the cases. As Mel says, the case of the child couple is naughty, wheras the case of a 34 year old school teacher and a 15 year old pupil is an abuse of power and responsibility.
 
Originally posted by Dave G@Jan 17 2006, 04:30 PM
SL, I for one never said he was happily married and so wouldn't stray. Chances are, he may possibly one day, but do you think it likely that it will be for a minor? I know I don't.
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But he did it once, Dave - there's no saying he won't again. In fact, once men do get to middle age & they start to stray from their marraiges of 20 years plus, there are a frighteningly large number that go for someone half their age.

(I wasn't directing that comment purely at you either Dave, LordH was the one I was really directing it at after his comment "that after 23 years he should suddenly want to find another 15 year old girl, having apparently been happy with his wife for all that time I can't understand" and other comments about a happy marriage & 3 children)
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jan 17 2006, 02:35 PM
In this case, I feel that the intellectual reaction is splitting hairs, however, [so it is entirely reasonable to consider the emotional reaction] - for example, by comparing two blatantly different circumstances & declaring them to be equal, such as in the case of a couple of kids, aged 15 & 17, to an adult in a position of authority aged 34, and a child aged 15.
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I'll re-repeat myself, I am not attempting to say that the cases mentioned on here are similar - in fact they are very different.. It seems that I have not made clear that which I'm trying to say, which is that there is always a danger in all-embracing legislation.

Forget the case of William Gibson - do you agree or disagree that young people (16, 17, 18 year olds as in the examples) who have sexual relationships with 15 year olds should be put on the register, as is the case?

(1) Yes

(2) No

There are no other possible answers.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jan 17 2006, 02:43 PM
In fact, once men do get to middle age & they start to stray from their marraiges of 20 years plus, there are a frighteningly large number that go for someone half their age.
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While my knowledge of the world tells me that this upsets many women, my knowledge of mathematics tells me that this cannot possibly be a criminal offence.
:D
 
Yes, I agree with you that there is a danger in all-embracing legislation and I would go for answer 2). However, I would also argue that William Gibson should still be included on the register as his case was a clear abuse of authority and responsibility. It's not even as though he can really claim that he was young and naïeve at the age of 34, is it? They weren't even close in age - in a case of say, a 22 year old NQT falling for a 17 or 18 year old you could understand it happening as they are so close in age. Once you get to 15 year olds though, and teachers in their 30s, it's a whole new ball game for me, I'm afraid.
 
Trust you to come out with a smooth line to that one!!! :lol:

It may even surprise you to hear that when I was 19/20, I went out with a divorced father of 3, aged 42.....B)
 
Yes but Brian, you started this thread with the example of William Gibson, so don't be irritated if some on here still feel there is some mileage left in the discussion.

Having thought about it quite a bit, I honestly don't think he poses any danger now BUT he did abuse his position.

Look at it another way - any 15yo will be very heavily influenced by anyone who is 19 years their senior and who's to say that, even though they may well be very happily married, she might not have been equally as happy if he'd left her alone to have a relationship with someone nearer her own age? After all, it's not even now that the true test comes - it's in another 15 or so years time when she's having to push him about in his wheelchair, change his incontinence bags, go to his funeral and still have a good 20 plus years herself, in all likelihood on her own.....
 
Very interesting debate this.

1) About 3 years ago, when I was 24/25 there was a girl in Year 11 who was showing a LOT of interest in me. She was very pretty and I was single but morally I knew it was wrong and distanced myself from her. At a school such as mine, many young people are missing ANY kind of affection at all and will go searching for it wherever they can find it.

2) In my opinion, the teacher abused the trust placed in him - however I can see why he did it and personally, I think he should be allowed to teach and should be taken off the register.

3) With a 15 year old girl and a 17 year old boy? Ok so the line in the sand has to be drawn somewhere but girls are often more precocious than boys in their teenage years and can regularly be the ones doing the leading. In situations like this, it is very unfair to prosecute the boy and place him on the register.
 
This govt have made it an offence for 14 year olds to get off with each other - I kid you not
 
And how will they prosecure the 500,000 or so of them that are doing it as we speak? Pathetic.
 
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