Tramore
- Thread starter Grey
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Gearoid
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How did Spirit Of New York run and what price did it start? As for the false start I would be annoyed as an owner if my jockey did not try to nick a few lengths at the start. Ruby Walsh has often said on RTE that as soon as you start finning jockeys three or four hundred quid it will be the end of it. There is certainly an annoying habit of false starts in Ireland and it's very frustrating for punters and race goers alike.
It was clear from the 5.45 that the ground was false round the turn - see a horse nearly going down and the jockey doing acrobatics to stay aboard. Did no-one worry about horses being BD, which they were? I hope the jock seen limping off after the two-horse debacle was okay, though I see the medics had sliced off the foot of his boot to get at his ankle. So much for concern about horses or jockeys' welfare.
I was going to raise that question too, Krizon, but decided against it because I think what happened tonight is that the horse which went down (as opposed to the horse in behind which was brought down) clipped the heels of the horse in front. I think this because the latter horse was knocked off line, which wouldn't have happened if it had been a straightforward slip.
That said, there were incidents last night, and I would say that Tramore has a history of problems on the bends.
That said, there were incidents last night, and I would say that Tramore has a history of problems on the bends.
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Look at Russel's carry on in the handicap hurdle yesterday on Cut The Bias. I didn't see the first false start but clearly the jocks charged the tape the second time and the starter held his flag up. A few jocks like Russell jumped the first and he continued on for a few furlongs. Then he went back to the start and created more havoc by refusing to join the line up and when he did he impeded a heap of horses. The other jocks were not pleased with him.
On the overall starting of races in Ireland, I was in Clonmel for the first time last September. The bumper was starting past the stands and you could hear the starters instructions quite clearly. "Walk in, slowly, walk in, walk in jockeys, don't charge the tapes, walk in", yet all the jocks ignored him and charged the tapes. False start. Take two was the same. You could hear the starter trying to reason with them. "Stand behind the white pole. stand in a line at the white pole and walk in on my command. Do not charge the tapes. Stand at the white line. jockeys stand. stand." As the jocks charged the tapes again. finally he told them to keep circling as they refused to co-operate and then he said "come on" and let the tape go and let them sort it out themsleves. Now from the ATR booth, I'd say Chapman was having a canary saying the starter should have let them go. But the starter is the ref and whether you like it or not, the players on the field have to listen to him. The starter is the same. I blame the jockeys and until they fine them for it, it won't change. Same with whip bans in big races etc etc.
On the overall starting of races in Ireland, I was in Clonmel for the first time last September. The bumper was starting past the stands and you could hear the starters instructions quite clearly. "Walk in, slowly, walk in, walk in jockeys, don't charge the tapes, walk in", yet all the jocks ignored him and charged the tapes. False start. Take two was the same. You could hear the starter trying to reason with them. "Stand behind the white pole. stand in a line at the white pole and walk in on my command. Do not charge the tapes. Stand at the white line. jockeys stand. stand." As the jocks charged the tapes again. finally he told them to keep circling as they refused to co-operate and then he said "come on" and let the tape go and let them sort it out themsleves. Now from the ATR booth, I'd say Chapman was having a canary saying the starter should have let them go. But the starter is the ref and whether you like it or not, the players on the field have to listen to him. The starter is the same. I blame the jockeys and until they fine them for it, it won't change. Same with whip bans in big races etc etc.
Thanks, Grey - maybe I was too ready to read a slip into it, having seen the slide in the 5.45 (horse stood up and carried on, jock was exiting right but did a fine job of regaining his seat), and assumed the same was happening again.
The jockeys in Ireland do seem to be a very disobedient bunch, that's for sure. As per Cantoris's quotes, you can sometimes get the gist of what's going on and the exasperation of the starter. A lot of jockeys like a flyer - going to the back and then coming through at the gallop used to be the ploy, until rules changed and they were supposed to walk in.
I also wonder if someone as experienced (and as good a horseman) as Davy Russell might deliberately create false starts as a ploy: get some of the horses who'd previously lined up neatly razzed up, out of line, and their jockeys fighting them, while he gains the position he wants, nicely under control? A lot of those 'apparently' not lining up properly a couple of times are real old hands, who must do loads of schooling work for their main user yards, plus riding-out, so hardly lack for knowledge of the horses under them. (So that's that excuse out the way!) I think messing up the start for others is probably now as much a tactic as it ever was.
The jockeys in Ireland do seem to be a very disobedient bunch, that's for sure. As per Cantoris's quotes, you can sometimes get the gist of what's going on and the exasperation of the starter. A lot of jockeys like a flyer - going to the back and then coming through at the gallop used to be the ploy, until rules changed and they were supposed to walk in.
I also wonder if someone as experienced (and as good a horseman) as Davy Russell might deliberately create false starts as a ploy: get some of the horses who'd previously lined up neatly razzed up, out of line, and their jockeys fighting them, while he gains the position he wants, nicely under control? A lot of those 'apparently' not lining up properly a couple of times are real old hands, who must do loads of schooling work for their main user yards, plus riding-out, so hardly lack for knowledge of the horses under them. (So that's that excuse out the way!) I think messing up the start for others is probably now as much a tactic as it ever was.
Fer fook's sake! Two down again - yeah, yeah, one technically BD by the other, but the other didn't clip heels with anyone. Time to modify that sharp bend off the downhill run, and/or get the sand out today. Come on, this is ridiculous. It's meant to be horse-racing, not dodgems.
I'm surprised that owners haven't lobbied the Clerk of the Course to make changes, Grey, if it's that often. I'd be well steamed if it were my horse coming down, although if I knew the bends to be treacherous, I wouldn't run there. I'm surprised, also, that punters don't bollock the course for endangering their bets. I'm even more surprised (I'm terribly surprised today!) that the Irish racing authorities haven't thought to look into what must be a design fault that's causing regular accidents, and think about lessening the threat to life and limb. Perhaps riders haven't yet been seriously injured "enough" or "enough" horses killed?
I think the four day festival makes it difficult for them, ground wise. It's a small track and they do two circuits in nearly all the races. So at this stage, they've gone around that top bend 8 races * twice in a race * 3 days = 48 times and I think the ground is just getting loose. They don't have much space to play with. The other problem in Trmaore is if it rains on quick ground, but Wexford and plenty of other courses have the same problem. One of colm's slipped on the bend in downpatrick last week and fell at the hurdle five strides later. They are going to move that hurdle I understand.
Yes, I would say it looks like the ground could well be loose on top, Cantoris. Having another look now at the last hurdles race and it looks well ploughed on the outside, no doubt from the previous racing. Perhaps four days is a day too much for the ground to take.
I'm hoping to God poor MR BONES didn't break his leg due to the turn? But it did go during that phase, so who knows. Dear horse - I'm assuming a home-bred by the Howards, just 9, so not quite the 'old' servant Gary O'Brien has rather dolefully alluded to - he sounds a bit down about the day, and I don't blame him. There's another horse lost today, I think, too, so perhaps he's getting fed up with the spills and the losses.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
I had the conversation regarding tight tracks etc. in Ireland with a workmate on Thursday, I'm more than happy to stand up for them providing they're safe but it sounds as if that isn't the case at Tramore the past few days.
As someone on Twitter put it the "it'll be grand" brigade seem to be having their way on this one and I'm not sure that moving the rail in is the answer either - the course is tight enough as it is and that combined with the downhill nature of a few of the turns isn't going to help it.
As Cantoris points out racing over 4 days and twice around near enough every race can't help matters either - IIRC they stage a 2 or 3 day meeting at the end of December/beginning of January, do they have problems with horses slipping up then too?
Martin
As someone on Twitter put it the "it'll be grand" brigade seem to be having their way on this one and I'm not sure that moving the rail in is the answer either - the course is tight enough as it is and that combined with the downhill nature of a few of the turns isn't going to help it.
As Cantoris points out racing over 4 days and twice around near enough every race can't help matters either - IIRC they stage a 2 or 3 day meeting at the end of December/beginning of January, do they have problems with horses slipping up then too?
Martin
No problem in the smaller field race. Might be the pace they are going at and a bit of crowding. Did Mr Bones break his pelvis? Looked like he sprawled goign round the bend when he lost his back leg. but he was going some clip and trying to make up ground. it's like accelerating into a corner when your driving. You just don't do it.
From the Irish Times:
Meanwhile the present track has serious problems. I think they are right when they say that fast ground is a factor, so the first step would be to ensure that watering facilities are up to it, and that the word 'firm' never appears again in a going description there.
They might also consider putting an artificial surface on the bends, a bit like the turf course at Kempton where it crosses the polytrack, or am I being daft?
There was a plan to build a new track at Tramore on a different site, but I presume the recession has put a stop to that.
Meanwhile the present track has serious problems. I think they are right when they say that fast ground is a factor, so the first step would be to ensure that watering facilities are up to it, and that the word 'firm' never appears again in a going description there.
They might also consider putting an artificial surface on the bends, a bit like the turf course at Kempton where it crosses the polytrack, or am I being daft?
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That new Tramore track is a schooling ground and after a few blips, it appears to be quite good now.
Colm made an interesting point to me about injury and ground. He said horses with problems will get injured on fast ground, but horses without problems will get injured on deep ground. He'd much prefer to run a sound horse on quick ground than soft ground. Interesting.
Colm made an interesting point to me about injury and ground. He said horses with problems will get injured on fast ground, but horses without problems will get injured on deep ground. He'd much prefer to run a sound horse on quick ground than soft ground. Interesting.
Plus crowding and jocks quickening up when they should be steadying the ship
A meeting took place at the Turf Club on Tuesday 30th August 2011 to consider a number of incidents, which occurred at the Tramore festival that took place from 11th to 14th August. Representatives attended the meeting from the Trainers and Jockeys Associations, Tramore management and Turf Club officials.
The matters investigated were:
(i) The number of horses which either stumbled or fell on the flat at two particular areas of the track.
(ii) The four fatalities that occurred on Sunday 14th August.
The following points were accepted by all present at the meeting:
• The safety of horse and rider is the main priority and that must take precedence over everything else.
• No complaints were received on any of the days by either the Clerk of the Course, Acting Stewards or Tramore Management from either jockeys or trainers about the layout or condition of the track.
• There was no commonality between any of the fatalities and the condition or layout of the track was not a factor in any of the cases.
• The statistics do not indicate the fatality rate at Tramore to be significantly greater than other tracks and the fatal injuries sustained by the horses at Tramore on Sunday 14th August could have occurred at any track.
• The ground got faster as the meeting progressed due to the dry weather conditions and it was not possible, in the time available, to manage the watering of the track to the extent that the executive would have liked. The weather forecast of showers and heavy rain did not materialise.
• The watering guidelines state that ground should not be overwatered to produce slower ground. Trainers expect good to fast ground at Tramore when the weather is dry and the type of horses that run there generally require this type of ground. There is a difficulty in producing ground that is suitable for both flat and national hunt horses where the same parts of the track are raced over.
• Many of the slipping problems which arose were due to the faster ground and would not have occurred had the ground been slower.
• All horses may not have been suitably shod for the prevailing ground conditions and this may have contributed to the slipping and stumbling that occurred.
The meeting also noted that the Turf Club had arranged for John Souter, Agronomist to examine the track on Wednesday 17th August to advise on any measures which could be taken to improve the racing surface in the future.
The following course of action was agreed to address the issues that arose:
• Where practical, watering should commence at the earliest possible stage to ensure that ground is no faster than good to firm for all future racemeetings.
• Bends where slipping has occurred on fast ground should be watered, aerated and sanded as required.
• Trainers should ensure that horses are properly shod to minimise the risk of slipping on fast ground at Tramore and the Turf Club will introduce new rules to deal with the proper shoeing of horses.
• The shoes of all horses that slip or fall in future should be examined and trainers should be penalised if horses are inadequately shod. • Consideration should be given in future to the appropriate grass length depending on underfoot conditions.
The matters investigated were:
(i) The number of horses which either stumbled or fell on the flat at two particular areas of the track.
(ii) The four fatalities that occurred on Sunday 14th August.
The following points were accepted by all present at the meeting:
• The safety of horse and rider is the main priority and that must take precedence over everything else.
• No complaints were received on any of the days by either the Clerk of the Course, Acting Stewards or Tramore Management from either jockeys or trainers about the layout or condition of the track.
• There was no commonality between any of the fatalities and the condition or layout of the track was not a factor in any of the cases.
• The statistics do not indicate the fatality rate at Tramore to be significantly greater than other tracks and the fatal injuries sustained by the horses at Tramore on Sunday 14th August could have occurred at any track.
• The ground got faster as the meeting progressed due to the dry weather conditions and it was not possible, in the time available, to manage the watering of the track to the extent that the executive would have liked. The weather forecast of showers and heavy rain did not materialise.
• The watering guidelines state that ground should not be overwatered to produce slower ground. Trainers expect good to fast ground at Tramore when the weather is dry and the type of horses that run there generally require this type of ground. There is a difficulty in producing ground that is suitable for both flat and national hunt horses where the same parts of the track are raced over.
• Many of the slipping problems which arose were due to the faster ground and would not have occurred had the ground been slower.
• All horses may not have been suitably shod for the prevailing ground conditions and this may have contributed to the slipping and stumbling that occurred.
The meeting also noted that the Turf Club had arranged for John Souter, Agronomist to examine the track on Wednesday 17th August to advise on any measures which could be taken to improve the racing surface in the future.
The following course of action was agreed to address the issues that arose:
• Where practical, watering should commence at the earliest possible stage to ensure that ground is no faster than good to firm for all future racemeetings.
• Bends where slipping has occurred on fast ground should be watered, aerated and sanded as required.
• Trainers should ensure that horses are properly shod to minimise the risk of slipping on fast ground at Tramore and the Turf Club will introduce new rules to deal with the proper shoeing of horses.
• The shoes of all horses that slip or fall in future should be examined and trainers should be penalised if horses are inadequately shod. • Consideration should be given in future to the appropriate grass length depending on underfoot conditions.