Trump vs Harris

Desert Orchid said:
I watched Official Secrets last night (the film about the GCHQ employee who felt obliged to let the country know we were being deliberately misled into an illegal war).

I have read in various sources that Israel did indeed know about the planned Hamas attack but Netanyahu allowed it to happen in order to justify putting in motion his own plan to destroy Palestine ahead of assuming it into Israel.

The truth always comes out in the longer term so it will be interesting to see to what extent there is truth in those pieces
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I don't know anything abut what Israel did or did not know prior to the event - but it seems fairly obvious that they have used it as an excuse to depopulate and demilitarise the area. Trump weighing in on the subject with the suggestion that all Palestinians should be taken in by other Arab nations supports that view.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I watched Official Secrets last night (the film about the GCHQ employee who felt obliged to let the country know we were being deliberately misled into an illegal war).

I have read in various sources that Israel did indeed know about the planned Hamas attack but Netanyahu allowed it to happen in order to justify putting in motion his own plan to destroy Palestine ahead of assuming it into Israel.

The truth always comes out in the longer term so it will be interesting to see to what extent there is truth in those pieces.
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Netanyahu (real name Benzion Mileikowsky from Poland) declared that there would be no official investigation until operations ended which allowed him to complete his genocide.
No way could Hamas of been able to get over the wall without cooperation. A squirrel would have attracted the attention. No way would Hamas have been allowed to go about what they did for 2 hours before being engaged with.

Then there is the Hannibal Directive
 
I don't believe what I am reading.,"Israel knew Hamas were going to attack but sat back did nothing and let it happen. What utter garbage and I am disappointed I you Dessie saying you heard this from sources...If your source was someone like Reuters, The Associated Press or even the BBC the chances are there was some truth to a report...but to quote "Sources" that could be anyone including some Jew hating Muslim is proof of nothing. Hamas are lowlife western and Jewish hating animals and that is a fact backed up by their actions
 
I'm just stating the obvious here, but It's a very sad state of affairs when people believe leaders, let attacks and atrocities happen to their own people in order to weaponise them to invade other countries.

Mind you, the same thing was said after 9/11, especially given the baseless invasion of Iraq afterwards. I can understand it. And I'm sure there's a whole history of other examples prior to that one given aswell.

I kind of get why people believe this, even though I'd rather admit I don't know on this one.

But I still find it very sad.

Whether it's true or not, it's a damming reflection of what us humans really think about our leadership.

It does kind of feel like everything's a conspiracy until proven otherwise at the moment.
 
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Now imagine if mecca and madinah had been overrun by another demographic via conquest, slaughter and forced conversion etc x hundred years ago, I wonder where we'd be now in terms of the mus taking it back.

Hence I have no love for either side
 
Tanlic said:
I don't believe what I am reading.,"Israel knew Hamas were going to attack but sat back did nothing and let it happen. What utter garbage and I am disappointed I you Dessie saying you heard this from sources...If your source was someone like Reuters, The Associated Press or even the BBC the chances are there was some truth to a report...but to quote "Sources" that could be anyone including some Jew hating Muslim is proof of nothing. Hamas are lowlife western and Jewish hating animals and that is a fact backed up by their actions
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Wind your neck in, Tanlic. I have had the honour of meeting DO and many from his extended family and friends through the years. I have rarely been in the company of such level headed, rational and pragmatic people - the kind that would give 'jew-hating Muslims' or indeed 'Protestant hating Catholics' the short shift.

Your tendency to immediately reach for hysterical hyperbole is becoming quite tiresome, especially when you know the values of your targets. Stop it.
 
Your so smart what were his sources...show me one link to a believable source who said Hamas knew about the attack and sat back and let it happen...get up off your high horse and put up or butt out
 
Marb said:
I'm just stating the obvious here, but It's a very sad state of affairs when people believe leaders, let attacks and atrocities happen to their own people in order to weaponise them to invade other countries.

Mind you, the same thing was said after 9/11, especially given the baseless invasion of Iraq afterwards. I can understand it. And I'm sure there's a whole history of other examples prior to that one given aswell.

I kind of get why people believe this, even though I'd rather admit I don't know on this one.

But I still find it very sad.

Whether it's true or not, it's a damming reflection of what us humans really think about our leadership.

It does kind of feel like everything's a conspiracy until proven otherwise at the moment.
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What I don't get is the total lack of respect theses conspiracy nutters have for the families who's loved ones were on this planes
Some idiots even pushing lies about it wasn't planes it was rockets. George Bush never needed an excuse to invade Iraq he already had one as he was convinced Iraq tried to kill his father..
 
pawras said:
Just as you would say the right has ruined the country eh?
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Why would you say that?

Firstly, I know that the Tories, when in government for 14 years, were a shambles. I don't think anyone would dispute that, would they?

Secondly, there are those who believe that those Tories weren't truly right wing anyway and that, in reality the true right belongs to Reform and Yaxley-Lennon. It is they who talk of the left ruining our beloved country with their liberal ways and that the likes of Reform, EDL and PA will provide a true voice for the right. Yes?

Lastly, you make assumptions about me as a matter of course. How do you know what I would say?
 
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Tanlic said:
I don't believe what I am reading.,"Israel knew Hamas were going to attack but sat back did nothing and let it happen. What utter garbage and I am disappointed I you Dessie saying you heard this from sources...If your source was someone like Reuters, The Associated Press or even the BBC the chances are there was some truth to a report...but to quote "Sources" that could be anyone including some Jew hating Muslim is proof of nothing. Hamas are lowlife western and Jewish hating animals and that is a fact backed up by their actions
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I can't recall the exact sources well over a year on but I admit to buying the general media narrative that Hamas carried out an unprovoked attack on Israel and I was horrified by it.

It was some time later that I read (Guardian? / Independent? Observer? / Sunday Times?) that there were rumours of intelligence, which I think also got mentions on the BBC by Jeremy Bowen, that the IDF knew all about the plan to attack but were told to stand back and let it happen. The IDF obviously denied this.
 
A quick google search of 'did IDF know about Hamas attack' gave links to these results:

www.nytimes.com

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago (Published 2023)

A blueprint reviewed by The Times laid out the attack in detail. Israeli officials dismissed it as aspirational and ignored specific warnings.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

www.csis.org

How Could Israeli Intelligence Miss the Hamas Invasion Plans?

Hamas pulled off a complex, multifront assault on Israeli territory. At first blush, the situation appears to be a massive intelligence failure. How could Israeli intelligence services—among the best in the world—be caught by surprise?
www.csis.org www.csis.org

www.bbc.co.uk

Questions for IDF over fall of Israel border post Nahal Oz by Hamas on 7 October

The BBC has seen an army account of how Hamas overran a base, and spoken to survivors and bereaved families.
www.bbc.co.uk


www.theguardian.com

Israeli intelligence leak details extent of warnings over Hamas attack

Officer who reviewed intelligence considered risk of big attack ‘an imaginary scenario’, leak suggests
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


And that's just the first page of the search results.
 
yorick said:
Why would you say that?

Firstly, I know that the Tories, when in government for 14 years, were a shambles. I don't think anyone would dispute that, would they?

Secondly, there are those who believe that those Tories weren't truly right wing anyway and that, in reality the true right belongs to Reform and Yaxley-Lennon. It is they who talk of the left ruining our beloved country with their liberal ways and that the likes of Reform, EDL and PA will provide a true voice for the right. Yes?

Lastly, you make assumptions about me as a matter of course. How do you know what I would say?
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You'll find varying views on the Tories term in office depending on which years you focus on.

The lawyer and the dobbin from accounts are certainly doing a sterling job so far LMFAO

I dare bet a large chunk of Tory voters would say they're far more centrist these days.

Seen as you put Reform in the same breath as EDL etal I would say implies where your own views lie.
 
Tanlic said:
What I don't get is the total lack of respect theses conspiracy nutters have for the families who's loved ones were on this planes
Some idiots even pushing lies about it wasn't planes it was rockets. George Bush never needed an excuse to invade Iraq he already had one as he was convinced Iraq tried to kill his father..
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Its in the American psychology to believe in conspiracy, and they have dragged millions along with them.
Sandy Hook? Sure that was just a load of crisis actors and the idiots who peddled that nonsense made many, many millions from it. We also have our own nutters over here, Richard Hall for instance who stalked victims of the Manchester bombing in the hope he could prove their debilitating injuries were fake.
Sad sad world with so many deniers of the plain truth which is that Hamas kicked off this war by slaughtering people going about their lives then hiding in schools and hospitals, misfiring rockets into hospitals and killing their own supporters.
 
Tanlic said:
Your so smart what were his sources...show me one link to a believable source who said Hamas knew about the attack and sat back and let it happen...get up off your high horse and put up or butt out
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You seem to adopt a very abrasive tone, mate. Why?

Of course Hamas knew, it was them that planned it. There is a theory posited that Mossad knew about the attack in advance. After all, they have the most sophisticated intelligent network, as has been amply displayed by them taking out targets, knowing where they are/live many times during this war.

Netanyahu has very bear-like attitudes in the conflict , is not popular at home and wants to keep his power, surely, as well as believing that it might be better if all Palestinians are removed from Gaza.

Opposing that, we see some Palestinians who believe that the Jewish state and it's people should be wiped off the face of the earth.

Brazen though Netanyahu is, I find it incredible that the Israeli state, through this conflict, has made absolutely certain that the relatives of those killed by the IDF will carry this conflict in their hearts for generations and will swear upon retribution - more conflict for generations guaranteed That is not the way to lasting peace, no matter what the rights and wrongs.

Left to you and me, my friend, and most of the people on earth, there would be less conflict, I feel sure. It is the power-hungry power psychopaths, time and again, who twist the prospect of peace to their own ends.

While the men of steel are in charge, there will never be a chance of the one thing that would secure some kind of peace - talking.

:confused::cry:
 
pawras said:
You'll find varying views on the Tories term in office depending on which years you focus on.

The lawyer and the dobbin from accounts are certainly doing a sterling job so far LMFAO

I dare bet a large chunk of Tory voters would say they're far more centrist these days.

Seen as you put Reform in the same breath as EDL etal I would say implies where your own views lie.
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Again, assumptions. You make whatever implications you wish, my friend. There are a large chunk of traditional Tory voters who believe that the Tory party is no longer right wing but cut from the same stone as Kier Starmer. It is not me who puts them in the same breath as EDL and PA but many right-wingers who feel let down over the Tory party and wish to see a more radical 'anti-woke', as they call it, agenda.

The issue of immigration has produced a swathe of anti-tory, anti Labour sentiment.

I know that Nigel Farrage is wary of being too close to Yaxley-Lennon but many of those attending the Lennon rallies are traditional Tory voters indeed.
 
yorick said:
Again, assumptions. You make whatever implications you wish, my friend. There are a large chunk of traditional Tory voters who believe that the Tory party is no longer right wing but cut from the same stone as Kier Starmer. It is not me who puts them in the same breath as EDL and PA but many right-wingers who feel let down over the Tory party and wish to see a more radical 'anti-woke', as they call it, agenda.

The issue of immigration has produced a swathe of anti-tory, anti Labour sentiment.

I know that Nigel Farrage is wary of being too close to Yaxley-Lennon but many of those attending the Lennon rallies are traditional Tory voters indeed.
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I would say your tone and commentary easily leads to certain assumptions

As both sides chase the mythical 'centre', by the same token you get people on the left who feel labour has gone tory , eg. the rabid socialist corbynite types, a guy I grew up with felt Corbyn is only socialisty LOL

What %s on each side feel their party has gone too left or too right one can only speculate which will be to some degree coloured by ones own viewpoints

I'd be suprised if Farrage goes near Yaxley-lennon with a barge pole as there's a good chance he'll take a good bite out the arses of both main parties. Cancelling local elections certainly isn't a good look no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
 
an capall said:
I have had the honour of meeting DO and many from his extended family and friends through the years. I have rarely been in the company of such level headed, rational and pragmatic people - the kind that would give 'jew-hating Muslims' or indeed 'Protestant hating Catholics' the short shift.
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I don't doubt that An capall I was just surprised to see him getting involved in politcal discussions as usually he just calls people ignorant and drops the mic.
 
notsodancingbrave said:
Its in the American psychology to believe in conspiracy, and they have dragged millions along with them.
Sandy Hook? Sure that was just a load of crisis actors and the idiots who peddled that nonsense made many, many millions from it. We also have our own nutters over here, Richard Hall for instance who stalked victims of the Manchester bombing in the hope he could prove their debilitating injuries were fake.
Sad sad world with so many deniers of the plain truth which is that Hamas kicked off this war by slaughtering people going about their lives then hiding in schools and hospitals, misfiring rockets into hospitals and killing their own supporters.
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Are you being ironic ?
 
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