Tut Tut, Have a slap on the wrist...

krizon said:
Gamla, you just don't geddit, do you? I see Paul Howling pretty much every time his horses run at Lingfield, and his owners, too. Now, I'm certainly NOT going to direct his attention to this site and your remarks, but whether it's your personal opinion or not, your remarks are highly defamatory: you've called him an immoral cheat, and that's quite enough to get this site hammered. You clearly don't realise that there are plenty of people who read this and other racing sites who would be happy to make mischief. If you do realise it, then you're risking TH getting into very hot water.

You might also like to know that it's no defence to say that something is your personal opinion - if it was personal, you wouldn't be making it public, and so often.

As far as I can see, you've breached the rules of this site and you ought to know better than that.
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I can't quite understand why you're so keen to defend him, there have been three examples given on this thread in a month where his horses have been given suspicious rides. Just because he's a nice bloke on the door at Lingfield, doesn't mean he won't instruct jockeys to give horses easy rides.

No other trainer has had so many incidents in the past month and I'd happily draw attention to them too if they had. There have been threads on here about Michael Wigham and plenty of other trainers and jockeys accusing them of worse than not running horses on their merits. Personal opinions about individuals are bounded around on here all the time (Fallon, Charles Byrnes, even things like Blair lying on the Chit Chat thread) and this is no different.

Just because you train horses doesn't give you a god given right to avoid being criticised for the way your horses are run in races. The BHA are soft as kittens on activity like this and I used Howling as a case in point to demonstrate this. In my opinion, his horses have been involved in too many cases like this now, all with the same characteristics and there should be an investigation into it as there is a clear pattern.

This is obviously not going to go any further, I've made my point, you've made yours so I'll not comment on it anymore. I'll happily point out any other similar incidents though.
 
What is the difference between this and all the other times non-triers are highlighted?

Is no-one entitled to point (what they consider) to be non triers out on this site, or does that bring the site similarly into hot water?

This isn't a smart comment, but it's best a mod points this out, and deletes the 1680 posts that are related to the above theme!
 
Hamm

I think you have to be very careful on what you suggest is or isn't a non-trier. Explicitly labelling someone as a 'cheat' is going too far without substantiated proof. The Sporting Life will tell you it's no good trying to defend yourself armed with experienced race-readers and jovial television presenters.

On a wider point, and this isn't aimed at Gamla Stan, but one of the annoying things about the proliferation of message boards in the internet age is people posting what they like under the 'free speech' banner and thinking they can get away with it. There's nothing I'd like to see more than some of the gobshites off the betfair forum dragged off to the courts for making false and unsubstantiated allegations through their pocket.
 
Are you therefore saying the word 'cheat' is the problem, and there is nothing wrong with inferring little effort, once you don't come right out and say it?
 
I don't think it is very difficult to point out interesting horses that have received injudicious rides without defaming anyone. I think it is very difficult to prove in a court of law, beyond all reasonable doubt, that a ride was bent rather than ill-judged.
 
Resplendent Nova under a strong Daryl Holland drive lands the 4.50 at Southwell for Henry Howling. Well supported at 9/2 early into 3/1, gamble landed. The Howling camp clearly knew the time of day there, making the long journey to Southwell worth while. A double for the dazzler on his comeback from Barbados.
 
Gawdanbennett, Gamla, for Chrissake READ what is written before you make even more incorrect statements! I'm not defending Howling - how do you infer that? I'm defending the rights of people, not on here and not able to defend themselves, from people like you slagging off their livelihoods and their reputations without evidence. I don't think I can help you further if you're just going to be pigheaded or blinkered about it.

Hell's teeth, I could call you a drunken numpty, it seems, and you would have no redress by your standards. I've no idea if you're that, but by your code I wouldn't have to - I could just blart it out and try to hide behind 'personal opinion', which doesn't wash in court.

Howling has been fined, the jockey given a hefty ban. Clearly they merited these punishments, or they wouldn't have received them. You may have one, or (wowee!) even two examples of what you think is tender riding of some of his many runners, but so what? If the betting patterns don't point to something sinister, then that's all it was. Get over it!

Gary Moore's just been caned with a £1,000 fine for three horses testing positive for banned substances, even though he claims they were part of veterinary treatment. By your yardstick, he's surely also an immoral cheat.
 
The horse had ran well at Southwell before, albeit not for a while. Don't think there was anything fishy at all there, just good placing of a horse as I said earlier in the thread.
 
That is what trainers are paid to do! You'd hardly want to be with one who couldn't place them to best advantage.
 
krizon said:
Hell's teeth, I could call you a drunken numpty, it seems, and you would have no redress by your standards. I've no idea if you're that, but by your code I wouldn't have to - I could just blart it out and try to hide behind 'personal opinion', which doesn't wash in court.
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That's nonsense as there are no incidents of my drunken behaviour in the public domain. There are incidents of horses not achieving the best possible placing from Howling's yard in the public domain though.
 
No, it's not nonsense, Gamla. I only have to say what I like (i.e. 'personal opinion') and according to you, that's okay. I might've seen you slightly tiddly one day, and decide that you're a drunk. It would be okay (if possibly wrong) for me to think that, but not to write it out for anyone to see that you are.

Look, it's no big deal, even though this is turning into a marathon event: Howling transgressed once and got fined. What you consider were other transgressions didn't get him fined or his jockey stopped from riding. Deciding on the basis of the two incidents before the fine - which is what you did - that Howling is immoral and a cheat, is completely out of order. You rushed to a wild, unsubstantiated, unevidenced judgment, and you've put that ill-considered viewpoint on public display. You're not secretly an agent of the Taliban, are you? Gamla al-Stanibani? You'd make a super judge out there - the villages would be decimated in no time! :(
 
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Are you seriously castigating GS for posting an opinion before someone else decides whether Howling was wrong or not?
 
I'm not castigating anybody for anything. I'm just suggestig that throwing around allegations that cannot be substantiated isn't the wisest thing to do.
 
Not you! :) Krizon's last post, because GS expressed his opinion before Howling was found guilty, or maybe I've misunderstood.
 
krizon said:
What you consider were other transgressions didn't get him fined or his jockey stopped from riding
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The jockeys got banned in both the Wolverhampton (Pipers Piping) and Kempton (All About You) incidents for not making maximum effort in achieving the best possible placing. As David also eluded to, there was another incident where the jockey left the blindfold on after the stalls opened at Kempton.

Three incidents involving Howling horses since 1st February but I'm clearly seeing things that aren't there and it's just a massive coincidence that all 3 incidents are from the same yard despite no other yards having such ruddy hard luck with their jockeys.

We'll leave it there.
 
Since when have the BHA been capable of anything?

Many, many incidents have been put forward about the trainer's dodgy runners yet you still insist on making out he's all kosher.
 
Sorry, guys, but I do have a life to live. If you want to carry on debating the wisdom of making unsubstantiated allegations on a public site, and flouting Board rules, then have at it.
 
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