Two Meetings Cancelled Today

V

Venusian

At the Start
Joined
May 2, 2003
Messages
1,265
So, with dry weather and projected good-to-firm going, we first get Ayr cancelled due to soft patches of ground, and then Sandown abandoned due to "slippery" conditions.

What the hell is going on, and who are the individuals responsible for these shambles?
 
In fairness Sandown have messed up their jumping ground with watering also in the past!!!

I see they are blaming "other factors" rather than their competency.
 
Yes, the main problem with Sandown is that the flat and hurdles course share the same track so the hurdles course is often in worse state than the chase course.

Are you really surprised that they're not admitting culpability?? Let's face it, even Fiona "it's not frozen/it's not slippery [delete as applicable]" Needham won't admit that much!!!

It really is time that watering policies were tightened up a little - I think that one of the best ideas is that watering is not allowed in the 24 or 48 hours immediately prior to staging a meeting; when tracks are watered so close to racing that is when the surface becomes slippery.

As for the patch of false (sodden, if you like!) ground at Ayr, that's just not excusable in the slightest. They should have learned their lesson from good ol' Fiona Needham that time at Warwick. It is about time that the clerks of the courses were made culpable in such a situation; it is the job they are paid to do, to produce safe racing conditions after all. A few more fines mightn't go amiss, along with a warning system - two strikes and you're out. Needham should have gone long ago.

It is the increase in race fixtures (ie excess racing on the surface) and excess watering that is making the ground at the racecourses so ropey nowadays. In an ideal world the best solution to the lot is to have time in between having horses pounding the turf and the track being left as much to nature as possible - but we all know it doesn't work like that.
 
From the RP:

Sandown director of racing Andrew Cooper said that watering was not the cause of the problem as they had finished irrigating the track the previous day.
...“I'm surprised at the turn of events. The home bend at Sandown is a tight bend and we take a lot of care about how we prepare it. I should think it would prove to be a combination of factors – mainly climatic.
Click to expand...

This man is an imbecile.

So they've been watering the track in the last 24 hours? Clearly, not conceivably a contibutory factor then.

Climatic? Has our climate only just become a temperate maritime one in the last 24 hours?
 
It's a shocker, especially since both of these are supposedly Grade 1 tracks. Neither clerk of the course would survive the wrath of Sir Alan.

And Jim Bolger, racing's own Sir Alan, criticised the ground at Navan the other day, saying there were ridges in the finishing straight.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@May 21 2008, 08:06 PM
I think that one of the best ideas is that watering is not allowed in the 24 or 48 hours immediately prior to staging a meeting;

it is the job they are paid to do, to produce safe racing conditions after all.
Click to expand...
I'm not proclaiming to know much about watering of tracks. But if they need to produce safe racing ground and I need to stop 48 hours before racing, wouldn't I be very open to "climatic" changes.......like rain or sunshine? I would need to make a call two days ahead of what the weather is definately going to be like over the next 48 hours. So if I think it is going to be a blistering day the next day with a reasonable breeze to dry out the ground, would I lump on the water.....only to find half the time the clouds roll in and while its a warm day with some decent drying, the ground is now softer than I want it. If only I had the chance to decide on watering the day before.

I'm just playing devils advocate. Would someone inform me whether they think the age profile of clerk of courses has become younger. Could experience, or lack of, be the reason for it? Fiona Needham can't have been doing it for long.....she was still riding up to a few years ago.

On Ireland's version of Sir Alan, he came out once and criticised Tralee when one of his horses stumbled a furlong and a bit out. Turned out they had taken out a drain and the contractor that did the work had not laid sufficient foundations when filling the hole, leading to a weakness that would not be picked up until a bunch of horses went over it. He was livid as his horse lost because of the stumble. Weld came out and told him to grow up, it was the contractors fault not the course. Just a story which has no relevance to this but I've seen Bolger moan about where he can park!
 
I realise you're playing devil's advocate Cantoris but a line has to be drawn. It is widely accepted that watering too close to racing makes a high risk of producing either false or slippery ground.

I'm sure that trainers would have less of a gripe with the clerks of the courses were these conditions purely down to the elements rather than artificial intervention; after all, no-one can really have a serious beef if the weather turns unexpectedly surely, not since we're all aware of the pitfalls of the inaccuracies of weather forecasts!!!
 
Originally posted by Cantoris+May 22 2008, 08:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cantoris @ May 22 2008, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Shadow Leader@May 21 2008, 08:06 PM
I think that one of the best ideas is that watering is not allowed in the 24 or 48 hours immediately prior to staging a meeting;
Click to expand...

I'm just playing devils advocate. Would someone inform me whether they think the age profile of clerk of courses has become younger. Could experience, or lack of, be the reason for it? Fiona Needham can't have been doing it for long.....she was still riding up to a few years ago.

On Ireland's version of Sir Alan, he came out once and criticised Tralee when one of his horses stumbled a furlong and a bit out. Turned out they had taken out a drain and the contractor that did the work had not laid sufficient foundations when filling the hole, leading to a weakness that would not be picked up until a bunch of horses went over it. ..... [/b][/quote]
In fact Cantoris I think this anecdote may have every relevance to what happened at Ayr. I've been told that a small but deep 'soft patch' was identified in the area which had been excavated for recent drainage works. Rumour has it that one of the investigating jocks managed to put an arm right down it - good job it wasn't a leg, what?!! :rolleyes: - of course that is anecdotal...

I'm sorry to say that at least one of the Clerks responsible for Wednesday's fiascos was a young[ish] lady. Surely Clerks aren't being chosen for reasons of political correctness? LOL Whatever, I do wish they would sharpen up their acts!

Watering is supposed to both soften up the gorund AND freshen up the grass, but in fact leads to a very thin grass layer for reasons I've expounded on before. It's almost impossible to get a good cushion of deep-rooted grass cover if you keep watering as the roots never get right down into the earth, so providing a dense mass of turf above. Constant watering also makes the grass - and the bare patches - very slippery indeed, highly dangerous on a tight bend
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@May 21 2008, 08:06 PM
It really is time that watering policies were tightened up a little - I think that one of the best ideas is that watering is not allowed in the 24 or 48 hours immediately prior to staging a meeting; when tracks are watered so close to racing that is when the surface becomes slippery.
Click to expand...
But surely situations such as the one now faced by the Curragh (imagine the state of the ground if they didn't put water on it) shows how impracticable such a sweeping rule would be.
 
Yet surely the abandonment of two meetings in a day due to false and slippery ground shows that there is some merit in the idea.
 
Surely, IMO at least, these situations should be handled on a case by case basis. Unfortunately that will have to involve people like Fiona Needham and a few others making common sense decisions, but it certainly seems the most practicable approach.

If there was no watering put on the Curragh tonight, tommorrow's ground would be bordering on a description of "hard".
 
I realise that it isn't a straightforward answer and there would be hurdles to surmount, but I believe there can be a way of implementing guidelines of that type, obviously with some degree of flexibility. Of course it could always be argued by some that the groundstaff/clerk of the course at the Curragh should have been a bit more aware of 1) what the ground was like in the first place and 2) the weather forecasts so that they could have prepared ground a little more suitable in time rather than leaving it be and panic watering at the last minute.

I do believe that some clerks of the courses do already do their best to avoid watering immediately before a race meeting as they are aware of the pitfalls it creates in doing so.

Whether people like it or not, it is an undisputed fact that it is the artificial watering of tracks that is the root of the many and regular problems surrounding the ground, those problems often involving producing dangerous ground.
 
In fairness The Curragh were forecast considerably more rain than they got. As others (Sheikh for instance) have stated, surrounding areas had plenty of rain fall in recent days.

Its not so much about the policy of watering, more like the competancy of the racecourse staff and team. Granted there can be bad luck when water ground gets unexpected rain or when forecast rain does not materialise but what happened at Sandown and Ayr was simply down to poor management.

I for one can never ever remember a problem occuring with the going at Leopardstown. By far the most professional racecourse in Ireland, jumping or flat racing there always has the best ground that is at all possible.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@May 24 2008, 10:12 PM
Of course it could always be argued by some that the groundstaff/clerk of the course at the Curragh should have been a bit more aware of 1) what the ground was like in the first place and 2) the weather forecasts so that they could have prepared ground a little more suitable in time rather than leaving it be and panic watering at the last minute.
Click to expand...
That's it though. Of course there will always be knobs like Needham making a balls out of watering, but I wouldn't blame the Curragh groundstaff for the ground today. It seems that basically everywhere bar the Curragh rained on Thursday and conditions last night and today were very conducive to drying ground.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that in some situations their hands are tied by factors out of their control, and your idea (while it has merits) would just worsen this in many ways, rather than fix it.

Is it too much to ask of you to monitor the state of the ground at all racecourses in Britain? I know you're a busy bird but you seem to feel quite strongly about this.. :P
 
Originally posted by Galileo@May 24 2008, 10:21 PM
I for one can never ever remember a problem occuring with the going at Leopardstown. By far the most professional racecourse in Ireland, jumping or flat racing there always has the best ground that is at all possible.
Click to expand...
I actually had a mind to find Joe Collins and personally thank him after Pierce day back in January.
 
Sorry, I myself wasn't blaming the groundstaff at the Curragh, I was saying that it could be argued that they could have been more on the ball! I don't know enough of the situation bar that I realise some rain was forecast in which case their hands were tied.

I also realise it's a tricky situation and not precise, but maybe if guidelines were in place (rather than rules) they may help.

I can definitely try to monitor ground conditions over here but I'm struggling a bit for transport at the moment!!!! :laughing:
 
Bird!? She'll have you for that trackside!!

Ah give her a break...travelling from Ayr to Sandown with her bad hip would be tough on anyone!
 
Originally posted by Cantoris@May 22 2008, 08:43 AM
I'm just playing devils advocate. Would someone inform me whether they think the age profile of clerk of courses has become younger. Could experience, or lack of, be the reason for it? Fiona Needham can't have been doing it for long.....she was still riding up to a few years ago.
Click to expand...
Fiona Needham's first clerk of the course gig was at Market Rasen in 2004. She spent six months there, but I think that was only ever intended as preparation and experience for the Warwick and Huntingdon gigs she moved on to then. Either way, she created a very favourable impression during her brief tenure at the Lincolnshire venue.

gc
 
Back
Top