Wednesday: the Strike

clivex said:
Thats complete rubbish

For a start the private sector has been on "better money' simply because the pensions rarely have been so strong and the job security a helluva lot less.

It is incredibly arrogant patronising and basically stupid to suggest that the "government is turning the workforce against blah blah". I think most in the private sector have experience of and can make their minds up about the quality of work and the benefits accrued in the public sector without having Cameron making suggestions

Would you like some examples? Because we have plenty I can tell you....

This is about a 3% cut in pensions. Does anyone seriously think that the public sector is being hammered here? In Ireland they had to take a 15% cut in salary.

And why have the number of public sector employees increased by 16% in the past ten years? Why are there 10% more civil servants? Most businesses have found a way to reduce admin staff. Thats what technology has brought about. What are these people doing?
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civil service have shed thousands of jobs in the last 10 years..and many more to come

more people on the dole..a really good way to boost growth?

many people do believe politicians..even with their track records..some people do believe what they are told..even you believe that CS jobs have inceased..which is not true
 
It`s sad and depressing to see so many sneer at the Public Sector workers for having the guts to strike for what they believe in. By all means disagree but respect them, not sneer. Cameron should be ashamed of his behaviour in this dispute. Clearly, he sees it as a populist cause which will do his poll ratings no harm at all.I despair at the quality of our politicians on all sides.
 
Jakers said:
I find it sad that suddenly it is worker turning against worker, divide & conqueror tactic works well for this Government
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I'm not so sure that this is a tactic that the Government has necessarily had to deploy, to be honest.

The economic circumstances we find ourselves in are unique (certainly in my lifetime anyway), and I think people who work in the private sector are, generally speaking, making-up their own minds on the matter.

The adjustments on public spending being applied by this coalition goverment, are a reaction to the prevailing hostile financial wind, rather than the ideology-driven "Big State = Bad/Society Doesn't Exist" strategy applied by Thatcher and her cohorts. Suggestions from clivex's pals on the left that this is some form of "Class War" are wide of the mark, and somewhat insult the intelligence of those workers in the private sector that are having to make just as many sacrifices as those in the public sector.

I don't believe that these strikes carry the support of the public, because the reasons for going on strike just don't ring credible and/or true amongst the majority of people. The unions' position suggests that they think that everyone but the public sector should tighten their belts, and they hide behind the class war rhetoric, because their real argument is somewhat hollow.

We're in a different scenario from that which applied during the Miners Strike, the Liverpool Dockers strike, the Wapping dispute, Ravenscraig and all those other classic, ideological strikes of the 80's. It's wrong to suggest the then-and-now are in any way related, and simply painting the Tories as Public-sector bashers is lazy and inaccurate, in my view. This is a coalition Government, and it would fall apart in a heartbeat if policy was driven by a Thatcherite "fuck the poor, just for the hoot" agenda.

I don't know enough about the Vodafone and Goldman Sachs stories to comment.

Edit: Reading this back, I realise the above sentiments are dangerously close to those expressed earlier in the thread by Clivex. Either he's getting cleverer or I'm getting stupider - I don't know which.
 
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I think Cameron has been too conciliatory (Maude especially) in the utterances so far because he is still dependent on votes from that sector. The real feeling is much much stronger of that i am sure. I had a meeting with a head of a PR company this week who is definitely not to the right and certainly no ranter , but i was knocked back by the sheer vitriol towards the strike and those involved. One example for sure, but not untypical i bet

Labour is the party struggling with this

And whatever the tories are doing, its nothing compared with throwing endless public money and running up huge deficits to expand the public sector workforce over the past ten years


Thats it in a nutshell Spacehopper....
 
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Why make Cameron the fall guy for this fiasco? He's inherited 13 rules of misrule by Labour, from bloated and then binned Defence contracts, the idiotically still-not-working NHS IT centralised system which, if the figures are right, now stands at something unbelievable like TEN BILLION POUNDS in overbudget (ten friggin' BILLION? Last I heard two years ago is was 'just' two, but this is really filthy mismanagement - yeah, go on, imagine all the services/jobs yadda-yadda that that figure would save).

If you're going to approach this from a political viewpoint, and there really is no other way, then kindly allocate the blame to the right target!

And in terms of public vs private sectors, the biggest difference is that job performance in the former is not driven by any commercial factors. In other words, you don't have to contribute to the financial health of your organisation in order to survive. Look at how many private sector jobs depend upon sales performance/commission, etc. and then ask yourself whether the now-exposed vast overordering of pretty much any sort of material or service by the public sector, especially the MinDef portion with the biggest of portfolios, would have been countenanced for one minute by the private? No, of course it wouldn't. Unless you physically decked your boss in his office in the public arena, your job was safe for life, regardless of your performance and certainly regardless of the profligacy of the management structure.
 
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And are those that ballsed up that IT system (that is a story which has far too often flown under the radar) still in their jobs?

Still getting final salary pensions?

You bet....

Fuck up like that in the real world and you are out on your arse (Banks excepted )
 
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clivex said:
Why not check a few facts first ec? It usually helps. Its not difficult...


http://www.reform.co.uk/resources/0000/0318/Public_Sector_Productivity_v2.pdf

The stats are from the government's own stats office ok?
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like i said..people still believe politicians..


At the end of the day..its always been easy to divide the working classes..thats why they get shit on so much..there are always people within the working classes who believe anything they are spoon fed...these are the people generally who swing from one party to another at each election and change the government.

I lived in a mining village during the miners strike..never has it been displayed to me how gullible some people are..fed lies by the government and believed it.

Do you remember when Scargill had the live TV debate with the Coal Board Chief....it was just as the strike had started I believe..Scargill said that 70000 miners would lose their jobs...Coal Board chief said that was not the case.

That strike shaped this country for ever..it sent out a clear message to the working classes..knuckle under..or get arse whooped.

I was on strike in 1979...thats when the Sun labelled us in a big black headline..SCUM...a matter of weeks later and people i worked with were still buying the paper and did so probably for the rest of their lives.

I'm not an expert on all this Clive..you and the other guys on here could tie me in knots...I don't read newspapers and don't particularly have strong political beliefs..but i do know when one section of society manipulates another..and that manipulation has been there as long as the class structure has been in place.

I tend to base opinion on what i see myself..maybe i don't get the full picture..but i have seen how my own work colleagues..through differing jobs over the last 40 years..are easily bought. The best example of that was when Thatcher got in and offered folk their councils houses cheap..people i worked with..mainly labour voters..voted tory just to get their home on the cheap.

There is a % of self centred people within the working classes that have got no principles, integrity and would not recognise an altruistic act if it hit them in the face..they don't understand those words..and have a me me me attitude in general. These are the people who normally are the first to shout when something doesn't go their way. These are probably the same people belly aching about supposed gilt edged pensions..so i've got little time for it...i've seen these type people all my life
 
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clivex said:
And are those that ballsed up that IT system (that is a story which has far too often flown under the radar) still in their jobs?
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I swear, me and a half-dozen of the chaps could have had that thing dusted years ago, and we'd only have charged a billion each.
 
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clivex said:
And are those that ballsed up that IT system (that is a story which has far too often flown under the radar) still in their jobs?

Still getting final salary pensions?

You bet....

Fuck up like that in the real world and you are out on your arse (Banks excepted )
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how the fook can you except the banks?

biggest fook up in history and you want that excepted..come on Clive...THEY are THE advert for the private sector..and they are as/more fookin usleless than the Public sector folk you are diggin at for making cock ups...there are cock ups and cock ups.

those bankers..still get their bonuses..even now ffs
 
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Arrogant, patronising and stupid, Clive? From the person who wrote 75% of public servants are not needed so 3 in 4 police, NHS staff, firemen etc are no use - its funny I will give you that.

Personally I agree labour are screwed on this, they have no angle to fight back on and a weak leader at the helm, I also agree public sector spending including pensions have to be brought in line, but they have every right to negotiate which is what they are doing, shame the private sector does have the same vehicle.
 
Jakers said:
Arrogant, patronising and stupid, Clive? From the person who wrote 75% of public servants are not needed so 3 in 4 police, NHS staff, firemen etc are no use - its funny I will give you that.

Personally I agree labour are screwed on this, they have no angle to fight back on and a weak leader at the helm, I also agree public sector spending including pensions have to be brought in line, but they have every right to negotiate which is what they are doing, shame the private sector does have the same vehicle.
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The Labour party are an absolute disgrace..at least with the tories you know they hate the working classes and will screw them whenever they can..whereas this version of Labour has to be the most jelly backed set of fookers i've ever witnessed.
 
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I bet you Cameron has his strategists working on how to get around the fixed term parliament bill, they would win by a landslide if he could orchestrate an election and great rid of the walking dead libs.
 
rrogant, patronising and stupid, Clive? From the person who wrote 75% of public servants are not needed so 3 in 4 police, NHS staff, firemen etc are no use - its funny I will give you that.
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Ok. Read it back and came out wrong. I was refering to the DTI only. Might be harsh, but may not be too.

EC I am not excepting the banks. try reading what i said again

DO NOT tell anyone in the private sector EVER that the banks represent them

If you do that to most business owners you will quickly be in a hospital ward
 
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clivex said:
Ok. Read it back and came out wrong. I was refering to the DTI only. Might be harsh, but may not be too.

EC I am not excepting the banks. try reading what i said again

DO NOT tell anyone in the private sector EVER that the banks represent them

If you do that to most business owners you will quickly be in a hospital ward
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With one nurse looking after you, only kidding :)
 
clivex said:
Ok. Read it back and came out wrong. I was refering to the DTI only. Might be harsh, but may not be too.

EC I am not excepting the banks. try reading what i said again

DO NOT tell anyone in the private sector EVER that the banks represent them

If you do that to most business owners you will quickly be in a hospital ward
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the banks are part of the private sector though Clive..so do represent the private sector ...you knock the public sector for being incompetent..well..it works the other way as well.

Do you think that public sector workers think that those running the show do things the best way?..because i can tell you now that is not the case in my experience..not remotely

i don't think there is much difference between public and private sector..they all have idiots who don't know their arse from their elbow..so to suggest that the public sector is inferior in some way is just plain wrong imo...a lot of people are just poor at their jobs full stop
 
EC1 - the big difference (I'll say it again) is that public sector employees can go through endless processes of being warned verbally, in writing, appealing, blah-blah, if they're really awful at their jobs, and then probably just end up being retained to keep up nonsenses like equality quotas and other bosh. By no means are all private sector employees brilliant, but if they're seriously rubbish at their jobs, they can be moved to a position which they'll detest and then leave, or just told that their position doesn't exist any more, and away they go. Try to fire publicly-funded incompetents and yes, you'll get MRSA and the like, because the managers of those hospital trusts, on enormous wedges, decided to put the jobs out to tender, bringing in the cheapest ones in the name of best accounting practice. When hospital management has the slightest clue about real medical care, it might consider going for the most effective and competent option... yes, pick yourself up off the floor, it's a killer joke.
 
krizon said:
EC1 - the big difference (I'll say it again) is that public sector employees can go through endless processes of being warned verbally, in writing, appealing, blah-blah, if they're really awful at their jobs, and then probably just end up being retained to keep up nonsenses like equality quotas and other bosh. By no means are all private sector employees brilliant, but if they're seriously rubbish at their jobs, they can be moved to a position which they'll detest and then leave, or just told that their position doesn't exist any more, and away they go. Try to fire publicly-funded incompetents and yes, you'll get MRSA and the like, because the managers of those hospital trusts, on enormous wedges, decided to put the jobs out to tender, bringing in the cheapest ones in the name of best accounting practice. When hospital management has the slightest clue about real medical care, it might consider going for the most effective and competent option... yes, pick yourself up off the floor, it's a killer joke.
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i totally agree that useless people are harder to get rid of in the public sector..i've witnessed that many times.

I'll just say..i'm not saying the public sector is run correctly..but i don't like this idea that those that work in that sector are in some way mollycoddled...the job is extremely boring.

I'll just quote what Alan Sugar says in his autobiography..he worked for the tax office when he first left school..i was quite surprised when i read he'd worked there..he said he managed about a fortnight..then he left..because it was ...double brain damage.

Now..i've done jobs through my life that have been physically very demanding..i was a hod carrier on a building site for about 2 years..worked in a foundry for 18 months etc..both jobs very hard work. But both of those jobs made the days pass very quickly..and as we know time goes seemingly quicker as you get older..but in my job now..the days seem longer than they did for me 30 years ago.

Don't underestimate just how much boredom can damage your health...i can guarantee you that someone in the private sector would die of boredom given a month in the private sector.

Many people wouldn't like doing monotous work everyday..they want someone else to do it..many people want a career that stretches them and gives them some sense of achievement..you won't get that in many jobs in the public sector.

So lets not be thinking people have some cushy number..Sugar tried it and managed 2 weeks.

I do what i do now..because i physically couldn't do what i used to do anymore..so i re-trained and got some IT qualifications behind me. There are people where i work who are in their twenties and thirties..i would hate to be in their shoes doing another 40 years of the mindboggling boredom that is public sector work.

If its so good in the public sector..why is it in times of good employment..most people given the choice ..wouldn't be seen dead doing such a mind numbing job?
 
By no means are all private sector employees brilliant, but if they're seriously rubbish at their jobs, they can be moved to a position which they'll detest and then leave, or just told that their position doesn't exist any more, and away they go.
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They can, but the company would be breaking the law - the first is constructive dismissal, the second is unfair dismissal based on falsely making a position "redundant". Can be hard and expensive for the employee to prove, so there's plenty of companies who will do it regardless (and not just because the employee is unproductive), but clearly there are those in the private sector who find this situation intolerable, or they wouldn't be lobbying for the government to increase the qualification period for such claims from 1 to 2 years.
 
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