What Most Accurately Describes You?
- Thread starter Euronymous
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Etta Place
Guest
I'm confused. I thought Scotland was part of the United Kingdom (Act of Union 1707 or there abouts). If that is the case then Scotland is to be considered as part of Britain (Great or not, if you don't want to include it on a point of merit ), as Great(or not) Britain is the United Kingdom plus Northern Ireland, is it not? 
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Scotland is part of Britain (and Great Britain), when Britain (or Great Britain) is being used as a political term.
But for some, Britain existed before Great Britain, and was the part of this island that was part of the Roman Empire. This excluded Scotland.
So although as simmo correctly points out Britain is a shortened version of Great Britain, it is also a historic term for what is loosely England and Wales.
But for some, Britain existed before Great Britain, and was the part of this island that was part of the Roman Empire. This excluded Scotland.
So although as simmo correctly points out Britain is a shortened version of Great Britain, it is also a historic term for what is loosely England and Wales.
Harbinger
At the Start
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Kingdom of England (which included Wales) + Kingdom of Scotland = Kingdom of Great Britain (1707)
Kingdom of Great Britain + Kingdom of Ireland = United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1800).
This changed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1927 after the creation of the Irish Free State and the partition of Ireland.
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Etta Place
Guest
Yes I knew that....my point was that Scotland could not/should not be excluded now. However, if you go back far enough in history you can make a case out of most things. Normandy is still part of England then! 
Desert Orchid
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Merde alors!
Colin Phillips
At the Start
This one is nagging at me! I was lying in bed thinking about it this morning around 4.15 and just now when I was walking the dog.
Being born in any particular country shouldn't make you proud to be a citizen of that country, seems to be the consenus on here.
If that is true can someone give a name to the emotion generated when a rugby crown in Ireland sing 'Amhran na bhFiann' (I had to google that!!
), in Scotland 'Flower of Scotland' , in Wales 'Mae Hen Wlad...' and of course 'Swing low sweet chariots' at Twickenham 
.
Is it just national fervour, it might be, but it is a feeling very similar to that which I felt when my two daughters went up for their graduation certificate.
And is your nationality strictly an accident of birth?, it was very unlikely that I would have been born any other place than Wales. True, three of my grandfathers came to the Rhondda Valley from other places, seeking the the streets paved with coal-dust. Worked in a "reserved industry" and that it was felt more important for the war effort that they stayed working underground rather than join-up (moreso in the Second World War than the First). The men who lost their lives working underground during the world wars, are they remembered on cenotaphs? Such an important job that they were paid peanuts (don't anyone dare say the obvious!!) and when they made a stand to get a decent wage and brought a government down, the next government from that party had to have revenge and decimated the industry by closing a huge number of pits.
I don't feel that I am an extreme nationalist and was never a supporter of the campaign of burning holiday homes but I do want to see the Welsh language survive and although I am not able to speak Welsh myself both my daughters had a bi-lingual education. A language that English-speaking teachers did their best (can I assume that was a Government policy?) to kil in the 19th. century with the "Welsh Not" policy. Whereby pupils were not allowed to speak Welsh in class, if they did, a piece of wood on a string with "WELSH NOT" on was hung around their neck and the child wearing it at the end of the day received corporal punishment.
Right, I feel better now!!
Being born in any particular country shouldn't make you proud to be a citizen of that country, seems to be the consenus on here.
If that is true can someone give a name to the emotion generated when a rugby crown in Ireland sing 'Amhran na bhFiann' (I had to google that!!
), in Scotland 'Flower of Scotland' , in Wales 'Mae Hen Wlad...' and of course 'Swing low sweet chariots' at Twickenham .Is it just national fervour, it might be, but it is a feeling very similar to that which I felt when my two daughters went up for their graduation certificate.
And is your nationality strictly an accident of birth?, it was very unlikely that I would have been born any other place than Wales. True, three of my grandfathers came to the Rhondda Valley from other places, seeking the the streets paved with coal-dust. Worked in a "reserved industry" and that it was felt more important for the war effort that they stayed working underground rather than join-up (moreso in the Second World War than the First). The men who lost their lives working underground during the world wars, are they remembered on cenotaphs? Such an important job that they were paid peanuts (don't anyone dare say the obvious!!) and when they made a stand to get a decent wage and brought a government down, the next government from that party had to have revenge and decimated the industry by closing a huge number of pits.
I don't feel that I am an extreme nationalist and was never a supporter of the campaign of burning holiday homes but I do want to see the Welsh language survive and although I am not able to speak Welsh myself both my daughters had a bi-lingual education. A language that English-speaking teachers did their best (can I assume that was a Government policy?) to kil in the 19th. century with the "Welsh Not" policy. Whereby pupils were not allowed to speak Welsh in class, if they did, a piece of wood on a string with "WELSH NOT" on was hung around their neck and the child wearing it at the end of the day received corporal punishment.
Right, I feel better now!!
You sound as if you're proud of the ACTIONS of certain people, Colin, but those coalminers could just as easily be American, Polish, Russian, China - anywhere in the world that coal, or copper, or gold, or diamonds are mined at risk to life and limb. There are thousands of poor, disenfranchised Chinese coalminers who've died doing their jobs, but I can't see the logic in one of their relatives being proud of their relation to a 'Chinese coalminer' - proud of their grit, toughness, and so on, but I don't see where the Chinese bit fits.
I think the idea of 'proud to be British/Italian/Zimbabwean' means that you're pleased to be a member (adopted or native) of a country which represents values which you think are good. No-one would, surely, assume pride in a country which they thought was dreadful, would they?
I think what many people object to is that it's a short run from 'proud to be X' to 'my country's better than yours' and an entirely unnecessary and fake form of national competitiveness creeping in. Countries, as such, are just pieces of land. One can say one's satisfied with one's government and the way one's society behaves, but what if you belong to a country with a truly dreadful leadership, or one which is torn by civil strife or war? Still 'proud' of it if your family's just been massacred/abducted/tortured by government secret police?
I think the idea of 'proud to be British/Italian/Zimbabwean' means that you're pleased to be a member (adopted or native) of a country which represents values which you think are good. No-one would, surely, assume pride in a country which they thought was dreadful, would they?
I think what many people object to is that it's a short run from 'proud to be X' to 'my country's better than yours' and an entirely unnecessary and fake form of national competitiveness creeping in. Countries, as such, are just pieces of land. One can say one's satisfied with one's government and the way one's society behaves, but what if you belong to a country with a truly dreadful leadership, or one which is torn by civil strife or war? Still 'proud' of it if your family's just been massacred/abducted/tortured by government secret police?
Big myth IMO
Thatcher getting revenge for Heath? No way......
But...economic argument was there (are the mines missed ??) and defeating the worst most incompetent leader (who said his intention was to bring down an elected goverment) was extremely welcome
The losers were the miners...but they should have got rid of pigheaded small brained Scargil at first opportunity
Agree with K (again)
Ugliest noise in the world is someone banging on about how "proud" they are to come from somehwere or other and then attempt to live up the regional/national stereotype
and a slightly longer run towards the death camps....
Ugliest noise in the world is someone banging on about how "proud" they are to come from somehwere or other and then attempt to live up the regional/national stereotype
and a slightly longer run towards the death camps....
Hmmm...... am I proud to be British? I'm certainly utterly relieved to be British, that's for sure. I am grateful to those who've gone before me and ensured my rights to free speech, to be able to wear pretty much what I like, go where I like and have the mechanics in place to democratically change what I don't, if I can be arsed to do so and enough of my fellow citizens agree with me.
OK, some of our ancestors' methods in getting me those rights may look questionable from where we're standing now but in the values of previous times, they were probably acceptable courses of action!
However, as it's pretty much impossible for any of us to actually know what it would be like to actually be a Chinese miner or a Latvian peasant, it's pretty pointless exercise to speculate on whether they too have feelings of national pride!!
Mind you, I'm starting to get cold sweats thinking about what it must be like being Welsh
OK, some of our ancestors' methods in getting me those rights may look questionable from where we're standing now but in the values of previous times, they were probably acceptable courses of action!
However, as it's pretty much impossible for any of us to actually know what it would be like to actually be a Chinese miner or a Latvian peasant, it's pretty pointless exercise to speculate on whether they too have feelings of national pride!!
Mind you, I'm starting to get cold sweats thinking about what it must be like being Welsh
Harbinger
At the Start
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We're all products of our environment and culture, as well as of our parents genes. Our parents were products of their environment and cultue, as well as their parents genes. Their parents were products...
...you get the idea.
Point is, where we are born may be an accident of fate, but who we are isn't.
And there's nothing wrong with celebrating the culture(s) that helped define who we are individually, as long as that celebration remains inclusive and - as Kri just pointed out - does not become a "mine's better than yours" pissing match (or it can do, just as long as it's not taken particularly seriously by either side).
...you get the idea.
Point is, where we are born may be an accident of fate, but who we are isn't.
And there's nothing wrong with celebrating the culture(s) that helped define who we are individually, as long as that celebration remains inclusive and - as Kri just pointed out - does not become a "mine's better than yours" pissing match (or it can do, just as long as it's not taken particularly seriously by either side).
Jules, it's equally pointless to speculate on what it's like to be a Welsh miner, then, isn't it? And even if they insist they're proud BECAUSE they're Welsh, I don't get it. They have a pride in being Welsh, not British, which is interesting. Proud to be a WELSH steelworker/sheep farmer/cheese-maker/love spoon carver, etc. Why? What on earth has one's Welshness got to do with it?
Honest Tom
At the Start
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- May 2, 2003
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- 1,272
Colin, language is a barrier. What's the point in speaking in Welsh, Gaelic or whatever when we can all speak English anyway? Is it because it means "they"'ve won? I think if my daughter had been taught Gaelic in school I'd have thought it was a total waste of time when she could've been learning French, Spanish or any other number of languages. I've got a lot of admiration for the south african school kids who went on strike when they were told all lessons would be in Afrikanner. On the other hand, Gerry Adams can stick his embarrasing opening speech to the new NI assembly up his jacksie (does anyone know what he said?).
simmo
Senior Jockey
Did they not get it dubbed by an actor?
h34r:
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Etta Place
Guest
I remember filling in a temporary visa on a plane flying into the US. It said if you were born in England, Wales or Scotland you HAD to put your nationality as United Kingdom, you could not put English, Welsh, Scot. I put English. I was born in England and consider myself English, but am equally proud of my multi Gaelic heritage. There is no such nationality as 'United Kingdom' and I wrote that on the form! Just shows how lax their security is 'cos they have let me back in since!
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Etta Place
Guest
'Northern Ireland? Is that off the coast of Scotland?' Asked by an American sales person in a previous life. I made the mistake of trying to explain............