What Will Become Of The Tories?

Warbler

At the Start
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If Brown calls an Autumn election (I'm still far from convinced he will, as I think he'll want his tax cuts to come into effect in April) but leaving that aside. The Tories will doubtless lose, on current form.

Now where as the New Labour project was pretty much drinking in the last chance saloon, they pulled it off with their Tory plan B approach. Having learched to the right with a series of seriously uninspired and terminally unelectable candidates, the penny finally dropped with them, and they too adopted a fresh face insincere smiley person. Suddenly the Tories were the party of the NHS, the Environment, and a multi-cultural liberal leaning party of 21st centruty moderation; 'Hug a Hoodie'.

Put simply, this is an election they have to win. If they can't, then they will have played just about every card available; to no effect.

What will they do then? Will there be a wholesale reactionary lurch to the right and their true colours (or should that be banners) unfurled? Will they go for one last heave and stay with Cameron? Or will they just become an obsolete party of English Nationalists, campaigning on largely rural issues?

I have a theory but will save it for the time being
 
George Osbourne/William Hague dream team to bring them home in 2012.

:D

Seriously the lack of a low-tax capitalist party in mainstream UK politics is depressing.
 
Theres a big difference between going down the total free market capitalist route and the nationlistic one. In fact, they are opposite agendas in many ways

i doubt if they will take either route frankly and we will be seeing two parties with not much between them for some time to come. the middle ground is larger than ever. outright socialism has failed and will never return (and its destryoyed itself with many of the vile friends it has picked in recent years) and the taste for far right politics of either strand simply hasnt grabbed the british in any significant way (unlike France say)

im not even sure that the argument is even left/right now. its more a case of competency and Brown seems to have that in spades.

he has impressed on many fronts and even minor issues such as his excellent stance against Mugabe (sending a message to the rest of the hopeless southern african states) has struck a chord and suprised

hague could have been a good leader. he has the wit to get under the skin of labour. wouldnt rule out seeing him back
 
It's not a million miles away from where I see it in truth Clive. I've mentioned before how we tend to ape things American and I think we're increasingly seeing something along their lines where by we have a right of centre party and centre of right party, which like you note, operates within ever tighter bands of finite distinction.

With the philosophical ground seemingly surrendered this blurring of ideas, should in theory come down increasingly to the cult of the personality, in much the same way as it does in the States, and I half wonder if we aren't at the start of this process (or were in 1997). You don't vote for a party in the States of course, you vote for a candidate etc you never see plackards or T-shirts with the party name emblazoned on it, but rather the candidates names, curiously referred to as a ticket (a phrase we've adopted too from time to time).

The only reason I wonder if I'm wrong, would concern whether we're drawing our influences from Europe instead, and dividing up along the lines of Social Democracy and what is variously called Christian Democracy in some countries. My inclination is that it's an evolutionary process and that we're more likely to be drawing from the other side of the Atlantic. Televised Presidential debates in 10 years?

Which brings me back to the destiny of the Tories? I don't doubt there's some populist right wing agendas they are trying to conceal, and they could make some headway with these electorally, but for every person they appeal, they'll turn off another two, and in any case, there has to be a strong likelihood that those people who such sentiments would chime with, are already voting for them anyway, so the net gain effect would be a loss.

My gut reaction is that they'd be better off pursuing the line that they are, and waiting.

New Tory might have won a landslide in 1997, but to no small extent the old Tories were the architects of their own downfall. In that respect I think the vote was equally reflecting a sense of rejection of the old, as much as it was endorsing the new. Critically though, the new has to be credible to capitalise on the window when it opens. Or to put it another way, good fortune occurs where preparation meets opportunity. New Tory had done the preparatory work, to no small extent the result of the 1980's failurtes and a recognition that without change, they'd be the party of perma-opposition (a similar proposition to what faces the Tories today). They therefore needed only to wait for the wheels to come off.

1992 had demonstrated that sleeze and the poll tax would be forgiven, but with Kinnock at the helm (someone who was still too closely associated with the transitory soul searching of the decade previous), the country wasn't ready.

I think it was Clinton who said "it's the economy stupid" and despite leading us into a second recession in a decade 'the grey man' won. However, the damage was being done. The ravages of the early 1990's after the so called 'Lawson boom' had gone flat, were fresh in the memory. Perhaps more crippling was the ERM fiasco. The Tories for so long the natural custodians of the country's economy and all things business had lost their credibility, they were mortally wounded.

1987 had taught us that people told opinion pollsters one thing (probably they were aware of the immorality of 'high Thatcherism' and didn't want to admit it?). However, when they got into voting booth they did something else!!! "Where there is unity I will bring greed" and none more so then 1987. What it underlined was that so long as people perceived their own individual lot to be protected by the party of power, they would return it, and conveniently overlook the short comings (doubtless telling their friends that they'd voted differently in the process). Dear Bob Worcester was sent off to recalibrate his sampling errors such was the collective lie the electorate was telling.

Which brings me round to what Labour will package as their greatest achievement. Economic management. Once staunch Tory territory I notice from today's Mori Poll that in answer to the question "who would you most trust in an economic crisis" the Brown/ Darling ticket scored 61% with the Cameron/ Osborne axis polling just 22%. These are frankly staggering turn arounds. Indeed, on the 8 issues most pressing amongst the sample (988 adults) Labour enjoys its biggest lead 29% on the headline of "the economy".

With this in mind it's starting to look like the Tories can't win an October election short of a major crisis/ scandal breaking during the campaign. Will they have the bottle to hold their nerve though, and play the long game. If they'd used their sense when under IDS's stewardship, they'd have been able to play the Iraq card today. That they went along with the government was probably understandable in a Tory context. It was poor political judgement (and I said so at the time) but IDS was a prisoner to his party, as much as he himself was to his own military background. Sure he'd have had a couple of uncomfortable years, but my God, I bet they wish now that they could play the "told you so" card? Instead of the "we'd have committed even more".

Which means they're going to have sit on the sidelines I feel, and wait for opportunity to present itself, whilst making the requisite preparations to present a credible alternative when it does. And it will. That means the prudent call would be for more Cameron, more reform, and more broader centrist appeal. Or will the reactionary yeomen of the guard replace him with someone in the mould of the mad mongoose herself? Do they really think they can win elections on issues such as fox hunting?

Their best hopes I think lie in snatching Liberal seats, who I expect to take mullering, and they might escape the crash landing thus. Which returns me to just how important this election is going to be to them.

Their finances are ever more stretched, their membership is dying off, their traditional big donors are just as happy to back either side now (as they fund both parties in the US lets not forget). They'll be a generation coming through before long who won't know what it's like to live under a Tory government (though I'd count that as an advantage to them). People don't naturally like to associate with losers, 4 in a row is starting to look a bit like that. Their traditional media support started drying up in the mid 90's, and has shown little sign of being regained substantially. Their own pool of governmental experience is getting ever lower.

Are we talking about a meltdown? as they say, time waits for no man, and political parties, like philosophies, become obsolete without periodic revision. Is the idea that the old Tory party is just an anathema receding over the horizon into obscurity really so unthinkable in the 21st century. I reckon they'll get two more chances, the first of which already looks to be beyond them. After that who knows?

A lurch to the right (which I feel is a distinct possibility - and one which would possibly involve the development of some schism within the party as it battles for its heart and soul - a looney right!!!) would accelerate this process. But still there needs to be a natural opposition, if we are to avoid elected dictatorship.
 
Originally posted by clivex@Sep 30 2007, 09:24 PM



hague could have been a good leader. he has the wit to get under the skin of labour. wouldnt rule out seeing him back
I didn`t actually mind him that much, not nearly as superficial as the robots they`ve had post Thatcher - but gingers are unelectable.


I think the comparisons with America are ok up to a point, but religion plays too much of a part in their politics to take too much from it in regard to trends.
 
Im not sure what you are expecting warbler.


Why does an opposition party have to be almost completely idealogically opposed? I have no problem with parties diffring on emphasis rather than being class war warriors. The country thinks the same too. If there is a far right or far left vacuum, it can be filled, but few people want to know. The SDP filled a vacuum not so long ago and that was before the technological developments availbale to organisiations now

I dont believe that "losing" parties cannot attract voters. 1997 proved that

I think you are largely wrong about american politics too. Sure the presidential candidate is a big focus, but it can also seem that way becuase thats the coverage we are subjected to. we do not get heavy media coverage of congress elections and so on. The party and the associated beliefs still counts for a lot in the states
 
Generally no, Dessie.

To test the theory name the last ten leaders of Ireland, UK or USA and which proportion of them are slapheads. Approx 50% men in America lose their hair. Some of this is from memory so don't be too hard on me. Anyway - conclusion is that slapheads cannot be leaders, generally.


Ireland/Bald?

Ahern NO
Bruton NO (When elected leader)
Reynolds NO
Haughey NO
Fitzgerald NO
Lynch YES
Cosgrove MAYBE
Lemass NO
Devalera NO
Costello NO

UK

Brown NO
Blair NO
Major NO
Thatcher YES (She was an Eastern European man in real life.)
Callaghan NO
Wilson NO
Heath NO
Home Maybe
McMillan NO
Atlee NO

USA

Bush NO
Clinton NO
Bush NO
Raygun NO
Carter NO
Ford YES
Nixon NO
LBJ Maybe
Kennedy NO
Eisenhower YES
Truman NO
FDR NO
 
As long as most of the votes are split between the main three party's very little is likely to change - and that's the way it should be.

It's only thanks to the spending policies implemented by the Conservative government of Major that Brown was made to look so good. If it hadn't been for the events of the 80's we would still be focussing on manufacturing yet being undercut by the East Asian markets - then we'd really be up the creek.
 
If it hadn't been for the events of the 80's we would still be focussing on manufacturing yet being undercut by the East Asian markets - then we'd really be up the creek.

Good point. The otehr difficulty was that much of our basic manufacturing was simply not of the quality required, so we were more vulnerable to competition than Germany was. Think British Leyland..... Ok we have world leaders such as BAE, but weve never made washing machines like Miele (ive got one)

I think that we are culturally far more inclined towards being a service and trading economy. Creative enterprise is our strength.

Not only the asian markets of course, but eastern europe too
 
We already live in an elective dictatorship - New Labour won less than 25% of the votes cast at the last election - never mind the % of the electorate itself - yet still had a massive majority in Parliament. A lot of those seats were won by Scottish votes, which is pretty outrageous for several reasons [tiny number of people in Scottish constituencies, the West Lothian question etc etc].

The Tories in fact won the election in England itself in terms of votes cast. Even given the cut in the number of Scottish seats and the boundary changes which will - and should - work in the Tories' faovur [as there is currently a massive imbalance in voter numbers in rural and city constituencies], it will still require a very large percentage more Tory votes to get a majority than a Labour one. Only proportional representation can really address this, but that would throw up other problems, esp in terms of Party stranglehold on the political process [which is already extreme] via the Candidate List system

Many seats currently held by Liberals were traditionally Tory until very recently. CMD's 'Green Offensive' is clearly aimed at tryingto win these back, which he has to do get a majority. He's quite rightly seen that He has to win back these seats beofre he tackles trying to make headway in Labour heartlands. What this strategy ignores however is that it alienates core Tory voters - the kind who have been staying at home over the last few elections, or vting UKIP/Refernedum Party. It's a difficult call for any Tory leader to make.

My final point is the simple one, that Governments fall when there is an economic crisis, and hardly ever before. I think there will be one; and that Gordy would be clever to get his mandate soon. But as Warbler points out, he may wait till his 'tax cuts' have come through ... Since when did Gordy ever in truth make any tax cuts? Whatever little he gives, he takes make more by stealthy taxes elsewhere. People obviously fall for it though, so he'll probably be alright for a few years yet.

I think David Davies who is from a humble background and would have stuck to core Tory policies would have provided an unassailable image for Labour spin doctors, given a much clearer message to the electorate than CMD, and could imo have beaten Gordon; but I can't imagine what they will do if/when they lose the next election. It may prove impossible to pick up the pieces, so the party may well fragment. That might be no bad thing - the old moulds surely have to be broken
 
The Tories in fact won the election in England itself in terms of votes cast.

They won the popular vote in England (by a whole 0.32%). Damn those pesky Scots and Welsh eh?

BTW, they lost the theoretical election in England by 92 seats.
 
Headstrong

The west lothian question is one strong weapon that the tories have. They should exploit it
 
Since when did Gordy ever in truth make any tax cuts? Whatever little he gives, he takes make more by stealthy taxes elsewhere. People obviously fall for it though, so he'll probably be alright for a few years yet.

I suspect that that illusion has come to an end. In fact, a genuine tax cut now would most likely be greeted with scepticism
 
but I can't imagine what they will do if/when they lose the next election. It may prove impossible to pick up the pieces

Dont panic would be the answer. No reason too. If he fights a good campaign (and i think he will), then they should stick with him

Stuff happens and there are a number of things that could still trip GB up in the future.
 
Jaysus christ Clive!!! You almost sound the the voice of sensible observation. First thread I've opned though, I expect to hear your reactionary contributions elsewhere.


My appeal to hopeless Tories


Please ditch Cameron


(no thinking about it - urm.......(and this is typed as I think)........ No in the wider interests please keep him :eek: :suspect:
 
Originally posted by Warbler@Oct 4 2007, 09:34 PM
Jaysus christ Clive!!! You almost sound the the voice of sensible observation. First thread I've opned though, I expect to hear your reactionary contributions elsewhere.


My appeal to hopeless Tories


Please ditch Cameron


(no thinking about it - urm.......(and this is typed as I think)........ No in the wider interests please keep him :eek: :suspect:
Is it not in everyones interest to see an able and effective opposition ?
 
I expect to hear your reactionary contributions elsewhere.

my comments are usually AGAINST reactionary forces

most notably religion and of course one in particular (which is beloved of the far left)

And also agaionst reactionary socialist authoritinarism.

Why does the left still think its progressive?

The defence of liberal democratic values has long since been abandoned by many on the left.
 
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