Where have all the French trainers gone?
- Thread starter harry
- Start date
I apologise with all my heart and soul
Dont try and con us.... You have neither
But good question though.... wheres the cheeseeatingsurrendermonkeys?
One answer might be their prize money but surely the atmosphere and allure of cheltenham etc is not that resistible? Im trying to think of last real contender in a big race here
But good question though.... wheres the cheeseeatingsurrendermonkeys?
One answer might be their prize money but surely the atmosphere and allure of cheltenham etc is not that resistible? Im trying to think of last real contender in a big race here
granger
Senior Jockey
Mullins has the Ricci's et al backing him and is buying some great horses from France
Nicholls/Henderson etc doing similar
No shortage of buyers for their best horses on these shores
Nicholls/Henderson etc doing similar
No shortage of buyers for their best horses on these shores
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
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Kasbah Bliss was probably the best French-trained hurdler of recent times, to race over here. Of the chasers, it's probably Mid Dancer - though he didn't really show his form in his limited runs over here. There have been occassional entries, but the bulk of the raiders dried-up when Macaire lost Jair Du Cochet in a Gold-Cup prep gallop.
Nowadays, many of the most promising horses are being bought for big-money after a handful of (sometimes fewer) outings, and are moved before they've really had a chance to establish themselves at home. As has been mentioned, Mullins and Ricci have been very shrewd in their acquisition of progressive, unexposed French horses.
Nowadays, many of the most promising horses are being bought for big-money after a handful of (sometimes fewer) outings, and are moved before they've really had a chance to establish themselves at home. As has been mentioned, Mullins and Ricci have been very shrewd in their acquisition of progressive, unexposed French horses.
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Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Macaire more and more of a selling trainer now - he knows what his horses are worth and how much they can make racing in France and I'd imagine you'd struggle to get much change from 75k for any non-claiming horse he sells.
Cherel and Trapenard not scared of selling either - more and more trainers buying the beaten horses from the traditionally hot 3yo races ie. the Finot, Pride Of Kildare and to a lesser extent the Wild Monarch.
Take Utopie Des Bordes - they've paid a lump to risk a broodmare over hurdles. There's no races for her now in France as she won't stay the trip and they got some nice cash for her.
All well and good talking about the atmosphere but in France they're racing for 12k in the provinces on a regular basis - Cheltenham surely has its allure but it's at the wrong time of the year for them in that it's at the very start of the Paris Spring jumps season (March-June) and there'll be plenty who'd be heading their FTO.
The only race I can recall a French trained horse contesting at the Festival in recent years is the XC Chase which had Quezac De La Roque in in 2011 (he wasn't beaten far in fifth) but prize money in that is shocking compared to what they'd get at home.
Martin
Cherel and Trapenard not scared of selling either - more and more trainers buying the beaten horses from the traditionally hot 3yo races ie. the Finot, Pride Of Kildare and to a lesser extent the Wild Monarch.
Take Utopie Des Bordes - they've paid a lump to risk a broodmare over hurdles. There's no races for her now in France as she won't stay the trip and they got some nice cash for her.
All well and good talking about the atmosphere but in France they're racing for 12k in the provinces on a regular basis - Cheltenham surely has its allure but it's at the wrong time of the year for them in that it's at the very start of the Paris Spring jumps season (March-June) and there'll be plenty who'd be heading their FTO.
The only race I can recall a French trained horse contesting at the Festival in recent years is the XC Chase which had Quezac De La Roque in in 2011 (he wasn't beaten far in fifth) but prize money in that is shocking compared to what they'd get at home.
Martin
Thanks Martin
Tom George is an exception
But that didnt stop them before? and that is harry's question. The selling angle is the main reason of course and it must simply be that their owners are less loaded than over here. If they had the resources to resist bids (or the will) surely our festivals are an attraction rather than 12k at Pau? I would like to think that a lot of owners love the challenge and buzz rather more than the balance sheet
But i suppose more or less agree
Its a pity though isnt it?
But that didnt stop them before? and that is harry's question. The selling angle is the main reason of course and it must simply be that their owners are less loaded than over here. If they had the resources to resist bids (or the will) surely our festivals are an attraction rather than 12k at Pau? I would like to think that a lot of owners love the challenge and buzz rather more than the balance sheet
But i suppose more or less agree
Its a pity though isnt it?
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And aside from tom george, its really down to the owners isnt it? Its as above. We overestimate how much the prize means to many top owners. Stewart family for instance arent lacking a bob or two or Wylie. they can spunk the prize money up the wall before breakfast and not give a monkeys. if its a case of "we can make a few k more traipsing around a few empty tracks in France" they are going to say "so ******* what"
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Top Owners - yes. They dont need the money in the slightest and will only send them to france to when the French CH etc. I would like to see a lot more going the other way though.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Take Utopia Des Bordes - they've paid a lump to risk a broodmare over hurdles. There's no races for her now in France as she won't stay the trip and they got some nice cash for her.
Where did you get that impression from Martin? Simon Munir paid 220K for her because he knows Quevega can't go on much longer. She looks like she'll stay 3 miles she's got the same sire as Big Buck's in her bloodline and her Dam as far as I can find out has only had 2 foals......enlighten me if you can
Where did you get that impression from Martin? Simon Munir paid 220K for her because he knows Quevega can't go on much longer. She looks like she'll stay 3 miles she's got the same sire as Big Buck's in her bloodline and her Dam as far as I can find out has only had 2 foals......enlighten me if you can
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
You raise some good points there Tanlic - most notably regarding UDB's likelihood of staying 3 miles.
Unsure which of her siblings you are aware of but she's the third produce of the unraced Miss Berry. Her two older siblings are:
Quenta Des Bordes (Bateau Rouge) winner of a listed chase and a listed hurdle and group placed at Auteuil
Soliste Des Bordes (Nononito) an unraced gelding.
Utopie Des Bordes would be interesting to a French buyer if she looked likely to stay 3m 3f+ as these are the trips that the major races are run over. As ever there's a highly attractive program for good youngsters in France (particularly 3-4yo hurdlers and chasers) hence the likes of Master Minded and more recently Fago have both been sold after racing in these races and loooking unlikely to stay.
As you point out UDB is a slight exception to the rule in that due to new taxation laws her former owner Jean-Paul Senechal had a huge dispersal of all his bloodstock last Autumn - you'll have seen his black and orange colours frequently at Auteuil when the UK/Irish trainers have had runners and he had a runner (Musica Bella) in the 2009 Grand National.
Agree with you that Quevega can't go on forever but she's been very well handled by Mullins and hasn't shown any signs of her ability deteriorating (admittedly we wouldn't get to see this until March each year) and has still only had three more starts than UDB.
If Munir was just after something to try and beat Quevega with then there'd be worse purchases than UDB at 220k but she'd be a cracking broodmare prospect and IMHO it's pointless risking her as she's a Grade 1 winning chaser and is doing far better than many of his big money purchases still racing in France. Though he'd do well to speak to Willie Mullins about buying mares - he must have some for sale as I believe he has 37 in training (or roughly 5 times as many as the next highest NH trainer in Ireland).
British racing thrives on the prestige issue which Clive alludes to - we have many owners who for want of a better expression have more cash than sense and do not see racing as a business and is more of a very expensive hobby ie. David Johnson, JP, the Wylie's, Andy Stewart and others.
New tax laws will have hit French owners hard as no doubt has the recession so those who were willing to take a punt so to speak and are more likely to stay at home and race in conditions races for 50k than run in a handicap at Cheltenham for 60-70k or a Grade 1 or 2 for the same amount.
Willie Mullins, Tom George, Nick Williams and the like have done very well with their horses in France and I'd imagine other trainers will gradually follow suit. Even smaller trainers like Suzy Smith and Alex Hales have had runners over the channel at the smaller tracks. The two big Spring meetings fit in well for the bigger trainers though I'd imagine one of the reasons that UK trainers don't fancy racing in France more often is that the owners will realise just how ripped off they're getting by competing in the UK rather than France. I noticed that the Chasing For Gold syndicates are now setting up a syndicate to race horses in France too.
Unsure which of her siblings you are aware of but she's the third produce of the unraced Miss Berry. Her two older siblings are:
Quenta Des Bordes (Bateau Rouge) winner of a listed chase and a listed hurdle and group placed at Auteuil
Soliste Des Bordes (Nononito) an unraced gelding.
Utopie Des Bordes would be interesting to a French buyer if she looked likely to stay 3m 3f+ as these are the trips that the major races are run over. As ever there's a highly attractive program for good youngsters in France (particularly 3-4yo hurdlers and chasers) hence the likes of Master Minded and more recently Fago have both been sold after racing in these races and loooking unlikely to stay.
As you point out UDB is a slight exception to the rule in that due to new taxation laws her former owner Jean-Paul Senechal had a huge dispersal of all his bloodstock last Autumn - you'll have seen his black and orange colours frequently at Auteuil when the UK/Irish trainers have had runners and he had a runner (Musica Bella) in the 2009 Grand National.
Agree with you that Quevega can't go on forever but she's been very well handled by Mullins and hasn't shown any signs of her ability deteriorating (admittedly we wouldn't get to see this until March each year) and has still only had three more starts than UDB.
If Munir was just after something to try and beat Quevega with then there'd be worse purchases than UDB at 220k but she'd be a cracking broodmare prospect and IMHO it's pointless risking her as she's a Grade 1 winning chaser and is doing far better than many of his big money purchases still racing in France. Though he'd do well to speak to Willie Mullins about buying mares - he must have some for sale as I believe he has 37 in training (or roughly 5 times as many as the next highest NH trainer in Ireland).
British racing thrives on the prestige issue which Clive alludes to - we have many owners who for want of a better expression have more cash than sense and do not see racing as a business and is more of a very expensive hobby ie. David Johnson, JP, the Wylie's, Andy Stewart and others.
New tax laws will have hit French owners hard as no doubt has the recession so those who were willing to take a punt so to speak and are more likely to stay at home and race in conditions races for 50k than run in a handicap at Cheltenham for 60-70k or a Grade 1 or 2 for the same amount.
Willie Mullins, Tom George, Nick Williams and the like have done very well with their horses in France and I'd imagine other trainers will gradually follow suit. Even smaller trainers like Suzy Smith and Alex Hales have had runners over the channel at the smaller tracks. The two big Spring meetings fit in well for the bigger trainers though I'd imagine one of the reasons that UK trainers don't fancy racing in France more often is that the owners will realise just how ripped off they're getting by competing in the UK rather than France. I noticed that the Chasing For Gold syndicates are now setting up a syndicate to race horses in France too.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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- Nov 14, 2006
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Great post, Martin. 
Fair post grass but more cash than sense ? Makes them sound as if they are stpuid for not maximising the profit out of a hobby and revelling in the competition glory and excitement instead. If i was counting the odd k here and there with their fortunes i should bé seriously concerned about myself.
British owners have more money because they are the beneficiaries of a more unequal society and therefore they can spend more.
But even those who are not so wealthy would find it a lot more fun to win a race at their local track than to pick up a race in some corner of the French provinces where nobody gets to hear about it and you have nobody to share the enjoyment of your win.
But even those who are not so wealthy would find it a lot more fun to win a race at their local track than to pick up a race in some corner of the French provinces where nobody gets to hear about it and you have nobody to share the enjoyment of your win.