Which Way De Solzen

Warbler

At the Start
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
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Well the first bit is probably straight forward if the question posed is tantamount to which way won't he go? and I notice that the bookies have pushed him out for the GC and Champion Chase, whilst shortening him for the RyanAir as favourite.

I've given it a bit of thought as I had high hopes for him this season, and my simple conclusion is that he doesn't stay 3 miles, and never did. The grounds for believing he would are understandable, but probably flawed, and Alan King has compounded this with a few errors that might now haunt the horse.

Now detractors of my hypothesis will point to a stayers hurdle victory? So what. It's not necessary to be able to stay a truly run 3 miles, on spring ground, against what are largely inferior horses, off what is invariably a false pace, to win this race.

It would have been interesting to see if he were capable of winning this race had he been required to run a true grade 1 time, instead of bowling along about 30L's off this level of class. I'm tempted to conclude now that he would have been one of those host of casualties that I've speculated would be exposed and have been pulled up if the race was truly run. It also helps underline a bit, my suspicion that the calibre of horses contesting the stayers lack true grade 1 credentials, and most certainly in terms of its depth, and this is where Alan King's gone wrong.

His Hurdles records at 24F+ in grade 1 reads 1, 1, 1, 2 - whilst his chase record at the same distance in the same grade reads 5 & PU. I can't have it that this is down to fences. He's never fallen at one to the best of my knowledge, and did win what's starting to look like a decent Arkle, as well as a few other assignments en route. If he couldn't jump like Iris's Gift for instance, he could never have made this transition.

What I'm hypothesising is that Alan's been seduced into believing MWDS gets 3 miles based on his hurdles performances where he was able to compensate for his lack of true stamina by taking on horses of questionable ability at typically compassionate speeds.

Now because grade 1 staying chasers are run to grade 1 times (unlike their false cousins over hurdles) he's been exposed for trip rather than fencing, when sent chasing. It also accounts to my mind at least, why King was reasonably bullish about having the horse right prior to Haydock, and making positive noises etc My best guess now is that he was sending out all the signals in his home work which he'd done previously before going on to triumph in both the Stayers and the Arkle. King I suspect had been seduced by these signs, and had failed to legislate for the fact that even if finely tuned to his normal level of preparation, the horse was still going into unknown territory having never been asked to run 3 miles before at a true pace. It accounts for why he travelled perfectly well on the first circuit at Haydock, even looking to be going better than Kauto Star. He laid up with him effortlessly for about 2.2 to 2.4 furlongs, but with about half a mile to go, he hit the wall. Bang.

Or to put it another way

Arkle = can jump a fence? Yes
World Hurdle = gets a true 3 miles at grade 1? No

King was at a bit of a loss afterwards, and incorrectly deduced that the horse wasn't ready and that he'd left too much to do on him etc This I believe was a wrong conclusion. What i think he should have realised was that he'd got the horse right and he'd done his job correctly, but critically, that he doesn't stay 3 miles against grade 1 chasers. Staying the trip against so called grade 1 hurdlers is a totally different, and infinately easier assignment, as thier collective lack of ability conceals any fragility, which in turns seduces connections into false conclusions.

Having therefore drawn the wrong explanation from Haydock, he compounded this mistake and proceeded to hammer the horse at home, as he was operating under the a mis-diagnosis at pointed towards fitness and lack of preparation. Wrong!!! He'd been telling the media all week that MWDS had been put through a rigourous regime and the evidence of that was apparent today. Because he'd been over-trained for the King George he looked decidely off colour and pulled up shattered. At least at Haydock he was race fit and primed to go, albeit at the wrong distance unless of course he was meeting obliging slow boat hurdlers.

Now what damage might have been done I don't know, but i can't help feeling Alan King has got thsi one very badly wrong, and it stems from over-rating the strength of, and not necessarily appreciating the nature of, the stayers hurdle. This he compounded by blaming himself for Haydock, when the explanation lay elsewhere. The unfortunate problem with his mis-diagnosis, is that once he convinced himself of it, he locked himself into a suicidal response, which played out today and ended with a PU in the left hand column.

MWDS if given a break to recover from the Barbury Castle boot camp, is still the stables best 2 miler I believe, and is a more likely winner of the Champion Chase than VPU. The RyanAir looks to me as if it could become just about the most competitive grade 1 at the festival, with so many being scarred off the Gold Cup route. I reckon the 2 mile Champion might not be the easier assignment?
 
An interesting post, and you may well be right, although MWDS's two efforts this season have been disappointing even if he doesn't truly stay 3 miles.

No doubt he will be given a break, and Alan King will have time for a rethink about the horse's future career.
 
Well, I did not see him live unfortunatly, and have to admit that I am bitterly dissapointed with his season so far. Have to say though that on evidence of the two runs this season its hard to say what he does like - Choc started to push him on the first circuit already, far too early to say he would have liked another distance. As King has handled My way so well so far, one would assume he knows what the horse needs and wants; my only explanation is that there is something wrong physically?!
 
Originally posted by Warbler@Dec 26 2007, 11:32 PM

Now detractors of my hypothesis will point to a stayers hurdle victory? So what. It's not necessary to be able to stay a truly run 3 miles, on spring ground, against what are largely inferior horses, off what is invariably a false pace, to win this race.

Heard an interview with Choc Thornton on local radio the other day in which he said at the end of that race MWDS was "at the end of his tether" which is why I have been puzzled at his so called intended targets this season.
 
Im absolutely gutted about My Way De Solzen, absolutely gutted.

I dont think we will see him go for a trip anywhere near 3 miles in distance, he clearly doesnt get it.

I just hope that run at Haydock hasn't bottomed him out as he was quite tired after that and he didnt look at all comfortable at any time yesterday.

I just hope all is well with the horse, and he is given a break to get back to his best.
 
I think I'd be tempted to give him 3 or 4 easy weeks and see if he comes back to himself, and then let him have a 2 mile race at a left handed gaff track somewhere and take it from there.

Alan King has rightly earned plaudits for the way he's handled horses in the course of the last 4 or 5 years, and yet in one of those ironic ways the man who did so much to bring the horse on, might have committed a fatal judgemental error, that could well have done for him this season. Like any trainer or manager/ coach, they're human and aren't bomb proof, even the best make mistakes.

It's not totally unlike the manager who gets his unfashionable team promoted to the Premiership, and then gets the blame a few months later when they struggle. Training a horse isn't quite the same admittedly, as i think owners are more patient and have longer memories as to how their horse got into a strong position in the first place, but to some extent the man who made the horse, might just have broken it too.

I meant to dig around on this and see what the fate of staying hurdlers who went staying chasing was
 
No conclusions about the horse staying or not staying can possibly be drawn from yesterday's race. The horse wasn't travelling at any point in the race and Choc was giving him reminders as he was passing the stands on the first circuit. I too suspect there may be something physically wrong with him.

Warbler, you don't win a Stayers' Hurdle through not staying. On reading your third paragraph a person would be forgiven for thinking you were talking about a selling hurdle at Plumpton rather than a Championship race.
 
He ran like a horse that has had enough or was over trained to me...very sluggish. Either that or he was hurting.
 
I reproduce it for you verbatim Dom, and ask you to read it again. There is one key phrase that alters the emphasis quite a bit.

"Now detractors of my hypothesis will point to a stayers hurdle victory? So what. It's not necessary to be able to stay a truly run 3 miles, on spring ground, against what are largely inferior horses, off what is invariably a false pace, to win this race".

I would express it in another way, but it's rather unfortunate that you've recently chastised someone for exactly the same. Suffice to say, all horses stay 3 miles, it's just that some stay it more quickly than others. The key words being "truly run". For whatever reason, staying hurdles invariably never are run to what I think is a grade 1 class par, (all other divisions are, and frequently to a level of improbable accuracy)

I'll try undertaking some labourious research in an attempt to see where the win and placed horses are sourced from, and see if that sheds any light on this enigma of a division. I should say, I've no idea whether I'm going to vindicated or otherwise. shrug::
 
I disagree with you still Warbler, and I am reading the same from your comment as I did the first time, second time and fourth time. If you feel it is not necessary for a horse to need to stay a truly run 3 miles to win the Stayers' I will disagree with you every time.

Yes, I know that the horse was all out when winning the race, but again, the formbooks will all tell you that he did indeed win the race and was the victor of a hard fought battle in doing so. You don't win a Stayers' through not staying - plenty have tried, and failed.
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Dec 27 2007, 01:13 PM
He was shown the whip shortly after passing the post first time.
Choc reported that if it had been any other race he would have pulled him up in front of the stands first time round, but felt he couldn't in fairness to punters.

What we've seen this season of MWDS def implies a physical problem imo. I'm sure Alan will do what is right for the horse, I don't think it's his training regime which has caused the horse to bottom, looks more like a 'bleeding under race stress' or some other breathing scenario, as the horse has been working fine at home
 
Gaz, just because nothing showed up immediately - presumably he was scoped - it doesn't mean there is nothing wrong!
 
I should have maybe said something that was really apparent.

I dont know as much about horse racing and general knowledge as you guys and im not sure what tests they do in such situations.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Dec 27 2007, 03:29 PM
I disagree with you still Warbler, and I am reading the same from your comment as I did the first time, second time and fourth time. If you feel it is not necessary for a horse to need to stay a truly run 3 miles to win the Stayers' I will disagree with you every time.

Yes, I know that the horse was all out when winning the race, but again, the formbooks will all tell you that he did indeed win the race and was the victor of a hard fought battle in doing so. You don't win a Stayers' through not staying - plenty have tried, and failed.
Not necessary to stay? What I've clearly said is the Stayers Hurdle never seems to be run at a true grade 1 pace so we don't know. I've even estimated it to be about 30L's below their 2 mile counterparts.

A truly run 2 mile race can be every bit as taxing on a horses stamina reserves if they're required to hammer out a series of 16-17F sections, than a moderately paced race over a further distance. Sure the horse needs to stay to some extent, (I'm not sure I ever stated otherwise) but there seems to be a much greater band of tolerance associated with the division. That is to say, a horse that isn't necessarily an out-and-out stayer, is much more likely to get away with it here, because the pace is invariably less punishing. I estimate it to be about 13%.

I raised this issue about year ago elsewhere, and it was suggested that it might be a problem pecuiliar to Cheltenham? I duly started to investigate Aintree's staying Hurdle, Newbury's Long Distance Hurdle and Wetherby's West Yorkshire Hurdle. On each occasion the same type of figures came back in broadly the same ratio's of lower performance each time. These additional findings tended to point the finger at the division, rather than the course.

To some extent the hard fought/ close finish you mention in this case is far from being evidence of an 'all out' blood & guts battle from tape to post. It's usually (though not exclusively) evidence of a slower tactical affair that brought horses together and narrowed any class differential. This only resolved itself when they put the accelerator down.

Where I'm tempted increasingly to point the finger is the quality of horse that contests staying hurdles. We might give them a nominal grade 1 status, and because we read it, we believe it. The Stopwatch however, can't read, and that's been telling me for some time that there's something wrong.

I thought I'd try and look at the top 3 finishers of the last 10 years of Champion Hurdles and Stayers Hurdles, and try and see if there's any pattern as to where they are sourced from in terms of the previous seasons performance, where I've been able to, I've tried to note the highest RPR too. Not surprisingly it's a bit inconclusive, as many horses were successful on their second and third attempt in open company (particularly amongst the stayers). Another feature was that many of the stayers weren't particularly active at Cheltenham previously, and they're much harder to get a handle on.

Champion Hurdlers

Sublimity = 4th in a Supreme (148)
Brave Inca = WON a Supreme (152)
Afsoun = 5th in a Triumph (140)
Hardy Eustace = WON a Sun Alliance Hurdle (153)
Macs Joy = H'cap Hurdles and then into open company
Rooster Booster = WON County Hurdle (155)
Intersky Falcon = WON listed H'cap @ Aintree (149) 5th and then 3rd in C Hurdle
Rhinestone Cowboy = WON Champion Bumper (131)
Westender = 2nd in a Supreme (151)
Hors Loi La = WON a Supreme (159)
Marble Arch = Novice H'caps (122)
Bilboa = WON Gd 2 @ Aintree in F&M year (157+)
Istabraq = WON Sun Alliance Hurdle (149)
Blue Royal = Nov Hurdles and into open company (134)
Theatreworld = God knows!!!, never really did that much, and then turned up in the Champion Hurdle year after year to place
French Holly = WON a Sun Alliance hurdle

Compare this with the Stayers

Stayers Hurdlers

Inglis Drever = 2nd in a Sun Alliance Hurdle (157)
Mighty Man = WON the Top Novices @ Aintree didn't run at Chelt (141)
Blazing Bailey = 3rd in a Triumph (145)
MWDS = 15th in a Supreme (103) 2nd @ Aintree (142)
Golden Cross = 3rd in a Triumph (132) 7th in a Champion H (151)
Iris's Gift = 5th in the Champion Bumper (135) 2nd in a Stayers Hurdle before winning it
Baracouda = Prolific French staying hurdles winner, never really did anything else
Crystal D'Ainay = 2nd @ Aintree (127)
Limestone Lad = 5 H's races to win his maiden and then went on a prolific handicap and staying hurdles campaign. Difficult to qualify? an enigma
Bannow Bay = Summer H'cap H campaign (162) went onto staying hurdles in the Autumn and Winter regressing to (144) at Fairyhouse
It Takes Time = 13th in Champion Bumper, then took on staying H'cap hurdles, reaching (149) in a hurdles qualifier
Bacchanal = last in Nov H @ Punchestown (116) before going onto intermediate stayers
Behrajan = 5th in a Sun Alliance Hurdle (130) went onto Staying Hurdles
Anzum = 3rd in a Sun Alliance Hurdle (132) then went H'capping, before eventually finding his soft option in the stayers division
Le Coudrey = another prolific French performer that did little else and couldn't really be sourced
Lady Rebecca = 8th in a Sun Alliance (121) then went into staying hurdles
Deano's Beano = 7th in a Supreme (125) didn't actually finish in atop 3 stayers hurdle, butthought I'd chuck him in anyway
Princeful = 2nd in a Supreme (136) went handicapping and staying hurdles
Splendid Thyne = Novice H's didn't run at Chelt or Aintree earned an RPR of 126, then went handicapping for a top RPR 152, before finding sanctuary as a stayer
Ocean Hawk = Nov H's where he earned (135) didn't run at Chelt or Aintree, went into stayers next year
Karshi = 3rd in Sun Alliance Hurdle (146) went into staying
Paddys Return = WON a Triumph Hurdle

As i said, its difficult to draw a definitive picture, but the performance/ gene pool of the Champion hurdlers looks to be considerably stronger than their 3 mile counterparts, who by contrast look like 'nearly but not quite' horses.

I was also struck whilst going through this, by how many staying hurdlers who went chasing never came close to matching their same level of performance. Having said that, I was taking off the alleged cream of this division, so the most they could hope to do was to replicate their level of performance just to break even so to speak.

The one thing I can't understand is that in order to run so far behind standard so consistantly, some horses must have run 3 miles over hurdles in a fast time on some previous occasion, in order to set the standard in the first place, that no other horse seems to be able to reach. I'm damned if I can find them though. Limestone Lad is about the fastest I've ever cloked, and Baracouda, Inglis Drever, My Way De Solzen and Le Coudrey have all indicated that they could probably do it if required, otherwise the cupboard is comparatively bare compared to the 2 milers.

I'm increasingly coming back to the idea that only about 5%- 10% of stayers are true grade 1 animals, and the rest are imposters to differing degrees.
 
The thing is, that stayers hurdle was not truly run, it was wierdly run. Quite a few horses were still swinging half a mile out, and three mile hurdles on the new course at Cheltenham are not the greatest stamina test.

Also, horses can win over extended trips before failing to stay them later in different circumstances, we can all name examples. So Warblers post is interesting and almost certainly has some merit.

. My Way De Solzen was being hit even earlier yesterday than reported in this thread, I spotted some reminders just after a sluggish jump at the seventh ( thats 3out on the first circuit).

He looked sour and dissinterested to me, for whatever reason, and I would be tempted to try blinkers.
 
I'm not disputing that horses can win over trips they fail to get (step forward BJK!!!), not least if they win against animals that are vastly inferior or are not racing in their specialty (viz-a-viz BJK again, racing against chasers without his engine in the Brit Insurance). However, despite the Stayers' not being the stamina test it previously was, horses simply do not win such a race through not staying, not least when they are engaged in a battle to win it.

As I said before, no-one can possibly say that MWDS does not stay based on yesterday's evidence. Anyone who says so is an idiot who must have watched the race with their eyes shut. He was beaten so quickly that he either has a physical problem or an attitude problem.
 
Re-read Warbler's initial post, and then the one from Gaz's Way De Solzen, and then tell me no-one is saying he doesn't stay! It seems clear to me that both are basing that evidence at least partly on yesterday's run.
 
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