Will they race tomoroow?

[Len Madeiros]

"sympathy for innocent connections" fiuck with them and you have no racing

Ok, just ban the whip. Everyone knows the rules then.

 

[Len Madeiros]

Ok, just ban the whip. Everyone knows the rules then.

And anyway, assuming the whip were still in use, connections would also have a stake in ensuring that the jockey did not cheat their way to victory, if the connections’ horse were disqualified.

This is all very “win, win”.

 

[Tanlic]

In any walk of life if you employ someone and he does something illegal are you held responsible? I think not so what should racing be any different.

I wouldn't fine the owner but what I woud do is ban the jockey from riding the particular horse again and maybe even from riding for that same owner again.

You're riding a horse like State Man (only and example) you'd think twice before raising your whip more than the permitted time in any race.

 

[Len Madeiros]

Why reward any connection to a horse, where the jockey has cheated to win? F1 teams suffer when their drivers cheat; and anyway, this is an issue around a sport improving its image in order that it survives the next 25 years. This a bigger picture at play here.

 

[Tanlic]

I doubt if they will ever stop NH racing in the UK. A sport that is more popular than ever,

The BHA need to grow a pair and stop giving in to these groups that will never stop because those at the top earn a fortune.
Your everyday worker can earn as much as £53,000 a year for handing out leaflets to raise money from fools.
I had the office next door to one of these so called charites in Park Gardens Glasgow and the head lady made fortunes even owned a rolls royce.
Sure there are some people who believe they are doing a good job but 90% of them probably have never say on a racehorse in their live.
And please don't give me any crap about you dont have to ride horse to know because that simply is not true.

I have seen some shocking descisons that would never have happened but for the BHA trying to appease these people
none worse than them hitting Richard Johnson with a £5,0000 fine and a ban for his ride on Native River in the Gold Cup.

The horse started to drift right on the run in and was just ahead and Richard hit him several times to heep him straight as he could.
The BHA inability to accept that but their ability to count to 10 took over and one of the best most considerate jockeys to ever grace the turf had one of his happiest days ever ruined by a bunch of clowns

As for Native River he raced on for another 3 years as keen as ever loving life without a care on the world............so where the fuckin hell is the cruelty in that?

 

[Len Madeiros]

I think you’re missing the point. It’s the image of a horse getting its arse whipped that looks bad. You are probably too close to the sport to understand, but if racing is to exist in any form 25 years from now, it needs to appear more attractive to an audience that is increasingly sensitive to these issues. It will die off otherwise.

The other question re Richard Johnson is why didn’t the stewards accept his explanation that he was using the whip to “correct” the horse’s path?

 

[simmo]

As with most things, I am fairly ambivalent about the use of the whip, but the arguments presented here have galvanized my thoughts.

I think Len is right - the issue is one of how things look to the average person, and the current direction of travel is distinctly towards not using a whip at all.

 

[jinnyj]

I carry a stick every time I ride my horse but it’s for corrective purposes I.e. when he’s being a complete prat and refuses point blank to go past a clump of primroses that he has walked past every day that week.

In a race, I believe it should be carried....but only to keep a horse straight. I do have an issue with the fact that by using it to make a horse run faster, you are actually employing the principle of fear. By hitting the horse, even if it doesn’t hurt because the whip is essentially a cushioned pad, so the noise and action will impact on the horses flight response and thus run faster. It is this that sits badly with me. We are essentially frightening the horses to run faster for our benefit. By all means, push and cajole and most horses will happily run for you, but the stick being employed when it’s doing it’s best, is not right imo.

 

[Tanlic]

A horse I rode out a dozen or so times at Rhona Olivers was Tregarron who was an absolute gentleman on the course and won races like the Greenall Whitley Gold Cup at Haydock.

However at home he was a right charchter. At a certain point we had to stop while one of the lads opened a gate and everytime he would drop a shoulder and try to dump me off.

Then when that failed a bit further on he had his favourite tree when he used to back into it and try to brush me off over his head

This didn't occur once or just with me the head lad pre-warned me he does it with everyone.

We never carried a crop/whip but several times I wish I had. One that springs to mind was a real cow of a thing at Gordon Richards yard called Spondulicks.
I rode him out one day, admittedly after an all nighter at the jockeys dinner and dance in Penrth and he was 100 yds behind everything all the eway to the gallops no matter how hard I kicked and shoved. one of the lads had to come back along side me to try and get this horse to walk faster than a turtle.
Eventually we get to a point where we were meant to canter but this thing the minute we were facing the stables took off like a 5 furlong sprinter and was hanging like a gate,
Anyway I surivive and Gordon had a right laugh asking me if I was a kamikaze pilot :lol:

My point is unless you have experienced things like that how can you know how difficult it is for jockey flying round a jumps course at 35 mph trying to keepa ton of horseflesh from doing something downright stupid or saying stuff the owner who feeds me I can't be arsed running today. Horses in that way are so like hunans it's scary.

 

[Tanlic]

I carry a stick every time I ride my horse but it’s for corrective purposes I.e. when he’s being a complete prat and refuses point blank to go past a clump of primroses that he has walked past every day that week.

In a race, I believe it should be carried....but only to keep a horse straight. I do have an issue with the fact that by using it to make a horse run faster, you are actually employing the principle of fear. By hitting the horse, even if it doesn’t hurt because the whip is essentially a cushioned pad, so the noise and action will impact on the horses flight response and thus run faster. It is this that sits badly with me. We are essentially frightening the horses to run faster for our benefit. By all means, push and cajole and most horses will happily run for you, but the stick being employed when it’s doing it’s best, is not right imo.

I think the problem with a lot of jockeys is they don't give the horse the time to respond between them using the whip. A good jockey will use his whaip then go back to driving him and then another to keep him at it.
It's the noise the whip makes that gets the horses attention just as much as the slap on the bum.

I can't remember anyone being reported recently for badly marking a horse during a race can anyone else?

 

[Len Madeiros]

A horse I rode out a dozen or so times at Rhona Olivers was Tregarron who was an absolute gentleman on the course and won races like the Greenall Whitley Gold Cup at Haydock.

However at home he was a right charchter. At a certain point we had to stop while one of the lads opened a gate and everytime he would drop a shoulder and try to dump me off.

Then when that failed a bit further on he had his favourite tree when he used to back into it and try to brush me off over his head

This didn't occur once or just with me the head lad pre-warned me he does it with everyone.

We never carried a crop/whip but several times I wish I had. One that springs to mind was a real cow of a thing at Gordon Richards yard called Spondulicks.
I rode him out one day, admittedly after an all nighter at the jockeys dinner and dance in Penrth and he was 100 yds behind everything all the eway to the gallops no matter how hard I kicked and shoved. one of the lads had to come back along side me to try and get this horse to walk faster than a turtle.
Eventually we get to a point where we were meant to canter but this thing the minute we were facing the stables took off like a 5 furlong sprinter and was hanging like a gate,
Anyway I surivive and Gordon had a right laugh asking me if I was a kamikaze pilot :lol:

My point is unless you have experienced things like that how can you know how difficult it is for jockey flying round a jumps course at 35 mph trying to keepa ton of horseflesh from doing something downright stupid or saying stuff the owner who feeds me I can't be arsed running today. Horses in that way are so like hunans it's scary.

Absolutely fine with using a whip in a corrective manner, as you’ve outlined here, but the whip, imo, should not be used in order to frighten a horse to run faster. That’s all.