Women Employees

Well, once you are in a position to make these decisions for yourself then maybe, just maybe your opinion will change - I doubt it though. Any person with any common sense, or is in the position to employ, will make the best decisions for their company. It's the governments fault! Discrimation in many instances is near impossible to prove but I have a feeling you would go out of your way to make an issue out of it banging the drum for womens rights at work!

Am I right or am I right? B)
 
The burden of proof in discrimination law has been changed recently to make it easier to prove although it is still difficult . The tribunal has to draw inferences from behaviour and analyse carefully the employer's explanations .

Then again some of the attitudes on here keep me in work :D
 
Originally posted by Kathy@Mar 1 2005, 07:27 PM
Any person with any common sense, or is in the position to employ, will make the best decisions for their company.
Preferably within the Law, I would like to hope....

As for being a radical bra-burning type, sadly, you'd be mistaken there - I rely on hard work to get me where I am & the fact that I am one of the few women employed in my particular field is a testament to that & something which I find very satisfying! :D
 
"I would never want to be in charge of a company with 2500 employees Brian. I wouldn't want the hassle with the staff and believe me, the staffing issues are one of the most difficult in business from my point of view"
All businesses are ultimately about people and the staff-related issues are the same in any organisation, it's just a question of scale.

"It's the governments fault!"
And this, I fear, is symptomatic of far too many employers' views. In fact what the government has done - or more correctly, the EU - is to "persuade" employers to operate fairer and more staff-friendly practices. You don't have to be a student of Fred Hertzberg to realise that businesses whose managements exercise maximum consideration for the needs of its employees, within sound commercial parameters, are the ones that become most successful.
 
Here are the Guidelines approved last week by the Court of Appeal for dicrimination cases .

1 Pursuant to s 63A of the 1975 Act, it was for the claimant who complained of sex discrimination to prove on the balance of probabilities facts from which the tribunal could conclude, in the absence of an adequate explanation, that the respondent had committed an act of discrimination against the claimant which was unlawful by virtue of Part 2 or which by virtue of s 41 or s 42 of the 1975 Act was to be treated as having been committed against the claimant.

2 If the claimant did not prove such facts he or she would fail.

3 It was important to bear in mind in deciding whether the claimant had proved such facts that it was unusual to find direct evidence of sex discrimination. Few employers would be prepared to admit such discrimination, even to themselves. In some cases the discrimination would not be an intention but merely based on the assumption that "he or she would not have fitted in".

4 In deciding whether the claimant had proved such facts, it was important to remember that the outcome at this stage of the analysis by the tribunal would therefore usually depend on what inferences it was proper to draw from the primary facts found by the tribunal.

5 It was important to note the word "could" in s 63A(2). At this stage the tribunal did not have to reach a definitive determination that such facts would lead it to the conclusion that there was an act of unlawful discrimination. At this stage a tribunal was looking at the primary facts before it to see what inferences of secondary fact could be drawn from them.

6 In considering what inferences or conclusions could be drawn from the primary facts, the tribunal must assume that there was no adequate explanation for those facts.

7 Those inferences could include, in appropriate cases, any inferences that it was just and equitable to draw in accordance with s 74(2)(B) of the 1975 Act from an evasive or equivocal reply to a questionnaire or any other questions that fell within s 74(2) of the 1975 Act.

8 Likewise, the tribunal must decide whether any provision of the relevant code of practice was relevant and if so take it into account in determining such facts pursuant to s 56A(10) of the 1975 Act. This meant that inferences might also be drawn from any failure to comply with any relevant code of practice.

9 Where the claimant had proved facts from which conclusions could be drawn that the respondent had treated the claimant less favourably on the ground of sex, then the burden of proof moved to the respondent.

10 It was then for the respondent to prove that he had not committed, or as the case might be, was not to be treated as having committed, that act.

11 To discharge that burden it was necessary for the respondent to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that the treatment was in no sense whatsoever on the grounds of sex, since "no discrimination whatsoever" was compatible with the burden of proof Directive (Council Directive 97/80/EC).

12 That required a tribunal to assess not merely whether the respondent had proved an explanation for the facts from which such inferences could be drawn, but further that it was adequate to discharge the burden of proof on the balance of probabilities that sex was not a ground for the treatment in question.

13 Since the facts necessary to prove an explanation would normally be in the possession of the respondent, a tribunal would normally expect cogent evidence to discharge that burden of proof. In particular, the tribunal would need to examine carefully explanations for failure to deal with the questionnaire procedure and/or code of practice.
 
"In fact what the government has done - or more correctly, the EU - is to "persuade" employers to operate fairer and more staff-friendly practices"

Such as what Brian?
 
Well, I'm a bit rusty and I no longer have a Personnel Director to hand but the legislation includes improvements in:

Contracts of employment, breach of contract and deductions from wages
Unfair dismissal
European works councils
Individual rights of employees
Law on employment agencies
National minimum wage
Disclosures in the public interest: protection for those who make disclosures in the public interest (whistle blowers)
Redundancy consultation, notification and statutory rights
Rights to notice and reasons for dismissal
Working time regulations
Time off, maternity and other parental legislation
Flexible working
Union membership: rights of members and non-members
Sunday trading
Discrimination on grounds of sex, race or physical ability

I guess that'll do for starters.
 
Oh yes, I remember my HR department discussing these with me some time ago! :rolleyes: Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of a Personnel Director! :D

Yes, some of these laws and new regulations certainly help, but smaller companies, although abiding by the law, just get caught up in more and more red tape. It's no wonder so many go to the wall. Don't worry Brian, I have no intention of going into head to head discussions with you about why these laws have improved working conditions as we will no doubt be poles apart on many things. Suffice to say, I am quite happy working with a small workforce and have no intention of ever expanding to such an extent that I ever need to employ people to employ people!
 
I repeat ad infinitum that the size of the business is irrelevant and that though employers of all sizes may find administering some of the legislation irksome it is beneficial to the workforce. I'm sure that the master chimney sweeps complained like mad when they were compelled to end the practice of sending small boys up chimneys.
 
I repeat ad infinitum that the size of the business is irrelevant

Sorry, Brian - but that's utter bollox!

A company employing under, say, 20 people suffers far more from any one of those workers being off for whatever reason long-term than a medium or large comnpany where the likelihood of being able to share out the missing employee's work among other employees is far greater.

That's plain common sense.
 
Thanks Julie - I was hoping you would make a reappearance on this thread! B)

I think you will find that the big company mentality speaks volumes as this thread confirms.
 
Songsheet, you misunderstand me - I have been going on about how there is no difference in the law (with some minor exceptions) where large, medium and small companies are concerned and that what Kathy calls red tape grows exponentially according to the size of the business.

Of course smaller businesses will find it harder to cover for absence - in the case of the company that I managed the regional managers would claim that their own problems were akin to those of owner-managers, as they were effectively operating a small business with funding and marketing central back-up. In fact, I doubt that they guessed when they joined the industry that they'd have to become so knowledgeable on employment law!

By the way, I see that you've taken to using legal terms...
 
Well done, 221bar1! I nominate you as Most Controversial Topic Starter for the month! This has done very well over some stiff competition. :D Can I beg you, though, please, please don't start anything off with the words 'booster' or 'rooster' in it?
 
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