Sectional Timing

[barjon]

I’ve been working my way through Timeform/Simon Rowland’s guide https://en.calameo.com/read/00036246578f6c606ae01?authid=mSo7SacuVBgK and I am a bit confused b the underlying assertion the best way for a horse to get from A to B is to run efficiently “efficiently” is then defined as running evenly or something close to that

My quarrel with that is that it appears to take no cognisance of the ground topography. If, for example, a horse is running 12 second furlongs and the comes to a hill for the next furlong I can’t see that you’d expect it get up it in 12 seconds and it would probably be suicidal to try.

Not sure if there are any sectional fans amongst us who could explain it to me. Maybe I’ll come to it in later pages, of course

 

[Desert Orchid]

I presume he's talking in the general scheme of things.

He addresses course pars and, to some extent, I imagine those course pars will take some account of the topography. He does talk about some courses have a closing par of 105% while others will have ones of under 100%.

I'd imagine by "running evenly" he's talking about physical exertion rather than to a clock.

 

[reet hard]

I’ve been working my way through Timeform/Simon Rowland’s guide https://en.calameo.com/read/00036246578f6c606ae01?authid=mSo7SacuVBgK and I am a bit confused b the underlying assertion the best way for a horse to get from A to B is to run efficiently “efficiently” is then defined as running evenly or something close to that

My quarrel with that is that it appears to take no cognisance of the ground topography. If, for example, a horse is running 12 second furlongs and the comes to a hill for the next furlong I can’t see that you’d expect it get up it in 12 seconds and it would probably be suicidal to try.

Not sure if there are any sectional fans amongst us who could explain it to me. Maybe I’ll come to it in later pages, of course

SR swerves pace changes and class, too.
Imo there's no such thing as'true pace' in distance or NH races for those reasons.
My advice is to watch the MPH figures - partiicularly in the shorter races - then make your own nind up. Should serve better than the mathematical maze that's served up as UK 'wisdom'.

 

[barjon]

I presume he's talking in the general scheme of things.

He addresses course pars and, to some extent, I imagine those course pars will take some account of the topography. He does talk about some courses have a closing par of 105% while others will have ones of under 100%.

I'd imagine by "running evenly" he's talking about physical exertion rather than to a clock.

Yes, I thought “physical exertion” was more appropriate, but all the examples are just related to time per furlong with the occasional reference to courses features like uphill finish.

 

[chaumi]

I'd agree. The same thing probably in different words...........(and one or two more of them, as is often my - unnecessary - way).

If you imagine yourself running uphill, you'd have to increase your level of exertion to maintain the same speed or increase it exponentially to gain speed. And the further you went (uphill), the greater the level of exertion you'd need to apply to maintain the speed. By increasing the effort at any particular stage, you (potentially, and in reality for most of us) will negatively impact your ability to run 'efficiently' in subsequent stages because you used too much energy (either uphill or even on the level) and the further you go the less you can run evenly.

I won't pretend to have an insight into how a horse would experience this but would imagine the laws of gravity would have the same general effect.

The thing is...it's easy for us. We know that running uphill is tougher, so we either make a conscious decision to fight gravity and push harder, or slow down to compensate while keeping the same exertion level.

But does a horse really know that? (I don't know the answer to this). Perhaps an experienced jockey might have an impact here, deliberately slowing his mount down on pronounced uphill sections of a course to conserve energy and keep a level effort. There might be an angle here that I don't think I've ever seen mentioned before!

 

[Tanlic]

I loved this from Reet "mathematical maze that's served up as UK 'wisdom'"

Rowland make a good living drawing in people for timeform who are looking for a magical solution that doesn't exist.

Only time I look at times is when 2 horses run on the same day over the same trip and ONLy compare the last 2 furlongs
or the last 2 or 3 hurdles to check which horse has the best acceleration. Unless one race was run at a crawl

 

[Desert Orchid]

I'd agree. The same thing probably in different words...........(and one or two more of them, as is often my - unnecessary - way).

If you imagine yourself running uphill, you'd have to increase your level of exertion to maintain the same speed or increase it exponentially to gain speed. And the further you went (uphill), the greater the level of exertion you'd need to apply to maintain the speed. By increasing the effort at any particular stage, you (potentially, and in reality for most of us) will negatively impact your ability to run 'efficiently' in subsequent stages because you used too much energy (either uphill or even on the level) and the further you go the less you can run evenly.

I won't pretend to have an insight into how a horse would experience this but would imagine the laws of gravity would have the same general effect.

The thing is...it's easy for us. We know that running uphill is tougher, so we either make a conscious decision to fight gravity and push harder, or slow down to compensate while keeping the same exertion level.

But does a horse really know that? (I don't know the answer to this). Perhaps an experienced jockey might have an impact here, deliberately slowing his mount down on pronounced uphill sections of a course to conserve energy and keep a level effort. There might be an angle here that I don't think I've ever seen mentioned before!

"Never make your move on an incline."

Whenever I see a jockey do this I know he's on a non-trier. It's guaranteed to empty the horse early.

It's often unwise to allow a horse to lose ground on an incline. Getting the pace right approaching an incline is important and then holding it is no less important. By "holding" it I mean not losing ground compared to those around you. The chances are the whole field is slowing down (the mph at the top corner of the ITV screen usually confirms this).

In my immediate post-retirement gym-going phase, I spent a lot of time working out which apparatus suited me best. But I always made a point of increasing the treadmill incline and speed for the final minute. (Getting up to 3mph was a big deal :lol

 

[barjon]

I loved this from Reet "mathematical maze that's served up as UK 'wisdom'"

Rowland make a good living drawing in people for timeform who are looking for a magical solution that doesn't exist.

Only time I look at times is when 2 horses run on the same day over the same trip and ONLy compare the last 2 furlongs
or the last 2 or 3 hurdles to check which horse has the best acceleration. Unless one race was run at a crawl

I sort of half go along with that. Nonetheless, I have found speed figures to be a fairly good guide, albeit not the be all and end all. So far as sectionals are concerned I am interested because I think they support what I think I have seen. Sometimes the reverse when I’ve thought a horse showed good acceleration into the finish, when the sectionals show it did no such thing, but merely held its pace when others slowed.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Sometimes the reverse when I’ve thought a horse showed good acceleration into the finish, when the sectionals show it did no such thing, but merely held its pace when others slowed.

This is what happened when Kelly Holmes won her Olympic gold. She appeared to finish strongly to lead close home but the post-race analysis showed she ran totally even for the final 400m and the others were slowing down. It was a masterclass in believing in your own clock. It made me want to read more into how races unfold.

 

[chaumi]

3mph, you overachiever! Some people just always have to be the fastest!

 

[Desert Orchid]

 

[sunybay]

I loved this from Reet "mathematical maze that's served up as UK 'wisdom'"

Rowland make a good living drawing in people for timeform who are looking for a magical solution that doesn't exist.

Only time I look at times is when 2 horses run on the same day over the same trip and ONLy compare the last 2 furlongs
or the last 2 or 3 hurdles to check which horse has the best acceleration. Unless one race was run at a crawl

Rowlands is a genius

sectional time is the best way to understand the form

but it is too complex for the general people (especially for those with problems to understand what is even the wfa scale)

 

[Desert Orchid]

Rowlands is a genius

He's good but I'm not sure about "genius", suny. I like reading his stuff and trying to understand it but I think it has its flaws.

sectional time is the best way to understand the form

Again, I can't entirely agree. It's a very useful tool for understanding how a race unfolds but I prefer time ratings to sectionals for evaluating the form. But collateral form remains, for me, the most accurate approach. The key is how best to interpret it. Get it wrong and we're wasting our time.

but it is too complex for the general people (especially for those with problems to understand what is even the wfa scale)

I agree but I would maybe have tried to word it more tactfully :lol:

Always good to see you posting, sunybay

 

[barjon]

Rowlands is a genius

sectional time is the best way to understand the form

but it is too complex for the general people (especially for those with problems to understand what is even the wfa scale)

Well, I’m one of the general people, suny, so if you can help me out with the “even pace” question discussed it’d be good. Ta.

 

[reet hard]

Rowlands is a genius

Just hides it very well, when it comes to picking winners. :lol:

 

[reet hard]

I sort of half go along with that. Nonetheless, I have found speed figures to be a fairly good guide, albeit not the be all and end all. So far as sectionals are concerned I am interested because I think they support what I think I have seen. Sometimes the reverse when I’ve thought a horse showed good acceleration into the finish, when the sectionals show it did no such thing, but merely held its pace when others slowed.

I'd suggest many have cut their teeth on speed figures, but they often don't give a true picture of changes of pace, and often deceive journo race readers, who will peg a horse as 'weakened' (giving the impression of lack of stamina) when they were simply outsped by quicker horses.
Uk sectionals stem principally from the Timeform influence, and it's clear that former employees and SR acolytes don't have the kokum to deviate.
I can do no better than reiterate that the innovative idea of on-screen mph figures are - in my strong opinion - a much better guide to what's happened in a race, and when.
Bends, inclines, pace changes, are all encapsulated, if one cares to study them properly

 

[barjon]

The mph figures do certainly have the advantage that you are “in contact” with them as you are watching the race unfold length by length. Sectionals sort of averages mph furlong by furlong and expresses it as a time rather than average mph. Trouble is the mph is only showing how fast the leader (who may change) is going as far as I understand it?

 

[Tanlic]

Rowlands is a genius

sectional time is the best way to understand the form

but it is too complex for the general people (especially for those with problems to understand what is even the wfa scale)

Genius?.......I googled him as matter of interest, at random, his selections for the recent Aintree meeting came up and a couple for the All weather championship

All-Weather Mile Championships (2.00) – TEMPUS (0.5pt each way) Lost

3-Year-Old Championships (3.10) – SPACE COWBOY (1pt win) Lost

At Aintree
Erne River and Zanahiyr both fell
Stage Star was PU, Shan Blu 2nd and Any Second Now 2nd were beaten favs
Speech Bubble 11th, Paint the Dream 4th Surprise Package 6th.

Genius my ass

 

[reet hard]

The mph figures do certainly have the advantage that you are “in contact” with them as you are watching the race unfold length by length. Sectionals sort of averages mph furlong by furlong and expresses it as a time rather than average mph. Trouble is the mph is only showing how fast the leader (who may change) is going as far as I understand it?

Sectionals also are taken from the leading horse, but the beauty of mph, is that they are part of the overall action, and not a separate mathematical list, to be studied in isolation.

 

[Colin Phillips]

Reet,, how do you manage to keep an eye on the m.p.h. fifure and watch the race?

I don't think the speed is shown on replays are they?

 

[reet hard]

On the majority of courses, they are Col - though it's relatively new on most of them.

 

[sunybay]

Genius?.......I googled him as matter of interest, at random, his selections for the recent Aintree meeting came up and a couple for the All weather championship

All-Weather Mile Championships (2.00) – TEMPUS (0.5pt each way) Lost

3-Year-Old Championships (3.10) – SPACE COWBOY (1pt win) Lost

At Aintree
Erne River and Zanahiyr both fell
Stage Star was PU, Shan Blu 2nd and Any Second Now 2nd were beaten favs
Speech Bubble 11th, Paint the Dream 4th Surprise Package 6th.

Genius my ass

He is not as good tipster as someone like you who tips the winners in every race

 

[reet hard]

He is not as good tipster as someone like you who tips the winners in every race

Come on, Suny. You penned the outlandish post at least, try to justify it.

 

[Desert Orchid]

... and as if by magic...

...POOF!!...

Simon Rowlands is back from holiday with a look back at the Curragh last weekend:

Sectional Spotlight | At The Races


*The use of the word "poof" above is intended to be no more onomatopoeic, as though straight out a pantomime, lest anyone should find offence in it.

 

[Slim]

I don't mind sectional timing or people hand timing races to find a bet etc. I just wouldn't want to rely on it as my only angle. There are plenty of people already betting these angles so it's not like it's not priced in.