• REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do much without having been registered!

    At the moment you have limited access to view all discussions - and most importantly, you haven't joined our community. What are you waiting for? Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Join Talking Horses here!

Point Blank: Did JP McManus Stop a Gold Cup Winner?

GC did sound a bit of a warning pre-race, but it still reads as if he was having a go. You’d have thought the stewards might have had a word or two to say.

IMG_0154.jpeg
 
The stewards seemed to think an explanation was required:

The Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board Veterinary Officer examined Inothewayurthinkin, trained by Gavin Cromwell, at the request of the Raceday Stewards and reported the animal to be post race normal
 
Probably dont want him going to the well too much before Cheltenham, which js all well and good, but it puts mugs like me away.

Good article. If he was owned by Donald Duck and trained by Micky Mouse, people would be calling for the trainers/owners head.

If it got chinned going off 2/1 you’d accept it. But to drift to silly prices and never be put in the race frankly stinks. And when it wins in March be because of the extra 2 furlongs. f%*& off
 
It's just bad optics for a Gold Cup winner. When you look at the scrutiny that Nicky Henderson got over Constitution Hill yet today that's just considered par for the course.
 
Slim said:
It's just bad optics for a Gold Cup winner. When you look at the scrutiny that Nicky Henderson got over Constitution Hill yet today that's just considered par for the course.
Click to expand...
Couldnt agree more. If that’s Nicky Henderson and De Boinville, they’d be called cowards, and be hung drawn and quartered. And have the worlds media all over them.

Tbf, some people are correctly calling it out for what it is, but f%*& all will happen. Just accept it, then laud the crooked bastards with praise in March when it wins on snaff again.
 
He absolutely HAD to be tested after that run but your article is very good and definitely something to ask. Racing has always trod carefully around the big guns for fear of upsetting them. You only have to look at the hangers on up at the Sales with all the filthy rich. Their syncophantic a*selicking is painful in the extreme - look at those who daren't say a bad word about the wife beating Sheikh. Funny how he never turns up on a racecourse these days but he's freely walking around the sales.
 
Double J said:
Couldnt agree more. If that’s Nicky Henderson and De Boinville, they’d be called cowards, and be hung drawn and quartered. And have the worlds media all over them.

Tbf, some people are correctly calling it out for what it is, but f%*& all will happen. Just accept it, then laud the crooked bastards with praise in March when it wins on snaff again.
Click to expand...

The horse could just have been lifeless but when it's a Gold Cup winner you need better communication of why the run was so bad, that's my point.
 
Len Madeiros said:
I’ll throw this one in for consideration:

Full Result 3.00 Haydock | 23 November 2013 | Racing Post

Full Race Result from the 3.00 at Haydock on 23rd November 2013.
www.racingpost.com www.racingpost.com

Henderson GC winner, trailed in by 40 lengths in a Betfair Chase. Wins his next race in Ireland - the Savills.

Stewards not asking why the improved performance at Leopardstown, and no recriminations.
Click to expand...

Read the report. He was well backed.

"Obviously this wasn't Gold Cup winner Bobs Worth's true running. Well backed for his comeback, he looked to find it happening a bit too quickly and his jumping was exposed at times. Perhaps he does now need a stiff track like Cheltenham to shine and it would be folly to write him off on the back of this, especially as his top team later said he needed it. A trip to Ireland for Leopardstown's Christmas meeting makes plenty of appeal before returning to Prestbury Park next year and ante-post odds as big as 6-1 for the Gold Cup probably won't last long."
 
I read with interest as always.

Integrity hasn't historically been a concern of mine at Grade 1 level - horses have target races that might not be today but GENERALLY, the prize money and the wealth of the owners of top-class horses is such that money that can be won on betting markets by doing the unexpected doesn't cross their minds.

Anyway, this year's Cheltenham Gold Cup winner seemed to be brought along very steadily and only showed what he can really do on Gold Cup day.

Why this was, I neither knew nor cared.

I'd bet him at 25/1 for the Grand National and my only interest in the Gold Cup was a small bet on him because I knew if he actually won the chances of going to Aintree would be diminished and I wasn't wrong.

So far this season it had looked the same - the 2m4f of the Durkan wouldn't have suited and the 3m today looked a minimum to me today as well.

I didn't get involved and just watched the race.

I was as puzzled by the reaction to the run as the run itself.

It's not a question of the trainer's integrity because look what he did last year - the governing body defines what integrity is and they didn't have an issue last season so were unlikely to have an issue if the same path was trod.

If I'd bet the horse the only person I'd be blaming tonight would be myself because I knew in advance who owned it, was training it and who was riding it.

But a lot of people aren't big on blaming themselves, so they dress up their anger over a losing bet as concern for racing's "greater good" (as if any self-respecting selfish c**t cares about that) and blame connections and the authorities for the environment racing is allowed to be conducted in.

Blaming others for one's losing bets never made anyone a better punter EVER.

It was true in my black and white TV era and it's true today.

If you ever have a scintilla of doubt, swerve the bet and the race - there are about 10,000 others a year to choose from.

This isn't me posturing, striking a pose or manufacturing a take - in order to be motivated to do that I'd need to care what others thought of me, which I don't.

It's what I think and live my betting life by.
 
Last edited:
No vets’ report at Haydock, everyone just took the word of ‘Team Henderson’. The ground was soft enough that day, as I recall. No excuses for things happening too quickly.
 
The idea that people who backed it only have themselves to blame is missing the point entirely.

Someone knew he was having an off day in advance.

The fact it was 10+ on the exchanges is the issue. It stinks.
 
I’m not disagreeing with your betting approach. My piece isn’t about punter responsibility or integrity breaches.

It’s about optics. A reigning Gold Cup winner drifting heavily and then running non-competitively is visually damaging at the top of the sport, regardless of intent or targeting. Markets don’t need to be right to matter – they only need to align.

You say you knew in advance who owned, trained and rode the horse and adjusted accordingly. That’s sensible as a punter, but it’s also the issue. When people factor expectation management into whether a Gold Cup winner is “the day” or not, the sport has a problem.

You can be right as a punter and racing can still be wrong in how it presents itself.
 
Slim said:
I’m not disagreeing with your betting approach. My piece isn’t about punter responsibility or integrity breaches.

It’s about optics. A reigning Gold Cup winner drifting heavily and then running non-competitively is visually damaging at the top of the sport, regardless of intent or targeting. Markets don’t need to be right to matter – they only need to align.

You say you knew in advance who owned, trained and rode the horse and adjusted accordingly. That’s sensible as a punter, but it’s also the issue. When people factor expectation management into whether a Gold Cup winner is “the day” or not, the sport has a problem.

You can be right as a punter and racing can still be wrong in how it presents itself.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying and I get where you're coming from, for sure.
 
"Inothewayurthinkin was never happy, he just ran disappointing. There is no obvious reason. He was beat before the ground would have come into it, so we don't know - Frank Berry, racing manager to J P McManus."
 
JJ. said:
The idea that people who backed it only have themselves to blame is missing the point entirely.

Someone knew he was having an off day in advance.

The fact it was 10+ on the exchanges is the issue. It stinks.
Click to expand...

It's a very bad look.
 
Slim said:
The horse could just have been lifeless but when it's a Gold Cup winner you need better communication of why the run was so bad, that's my point.
Click to expand...

I didn't catch the build up so wasn't aware of the big drift. 5/1 in the morning was bad enough (didn't stop me backing it) so 9/1 would have been alarming (but might still not have stopped me).

I missed the first few fences but watched in a mixture of disappointment and disbelief at how the horse ran and jumped (very stickily).

People on here who are closer to the sport will maybe know but I can't tell for myself. Is it normal practice for a jockey to make a point of presenting a horse wrongly at a fence to make sure it loses momentum?

I did mutter to myself around halfway, "It isn't off here," but then it did close up at the end of the back straight, seemingly without being asked a question but was already going backwards again as they started the turn for home.

I've been slagged on here for suggesting that sometimes horses aren't trying in Group/Grade 1s but the flip side of that coin today was that I Am Maximus appeared to be off for its life. They had won the race a few years back (if not this then the DRF race) with Edwolf, a 100/1 shot that morning so are they 'the types' who not only make money laying their best horse but also backing their longshot?

I suppose only insiders will ever know.

Stewards should have the power to raise a non-trier 10lbs as a penalty, as well as ban it for 40 days. It might at least just make them cleverer about the optics.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I didn't catch the build up so wasn't aware of the big drift. 5/1 in the morning was bad enough (didn't stop me backing it) so 9/1 would have been alarming (but might still not have stopped me).

I missed the first few fences but watched in a mixture of disappointment and disbelief at how the horse ran and jumped (very stickily).

People on here who are closer to the sport will maybe know but I can't tell for myself. Is it normal practice for a jockey to make a point of presenting a horse wrongly at a fence to make sure it loses momentum?

I did mutter to myself around halfway, "It isn't off here," but then it did close up at the end of the back straight, seemingly without being asked a question but was already going backwards again as they started the turn for home.

I've been slagged on here for suggesting that sometimes horses aren't trying in Group/Grade 1s but the flip side of that coin today was that I Am Maximus appeared to be off for its life. They had won the race a few years back (if not this then the DRF race) with Edwolf, a 100/1 shot that morning so are they 'the types' who not only make money laying their best horse but also backing their longshot?

I suppose only insiders will ever know.

Stewards should have the power to raise a non-trier 10lbs as a penalty, as well as ban it for 40 days. It might at least just make them cleverer about the optics.
Click to expand...

Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, I agree with your reading of the run. He did close up more by accident than by design, and that was his worst jump of the whole race.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I didn't catch the build up so wasn't aware of the big drift. 5/1 in the morning was bad enough (didn't stop me backing it) so 9/1 would have been alarming (but might still not have stopped me).

I missed the first few fences but watched in a mixture of disappointment and disbelief at how the horse ran and jumped (very stickily).
Click to expand...
If you had seen the first 3 or 4 you would have known it was over.
 
Frankel said:
If you had seen the first 3 or 4 you would have known it was over.
Click to expand...

Since I've posted the article I've been told privately that his work has been bad and that Barry Geraghty said on RTE Racing that he didn't look fit. Don't underestimate how you can get information as a punter by being critical in public.
 

Recent Blog Posts

Back
Top