10 Grade 1s
- Thread starter Harbinger
- Start date
EC1
On a break
I think you will find that it was the case Gareth.
After he failed to win the GC one year someone posted a thread on TRF..might have been DJ...saying that even though BOS had not won the GC he had still put in the best piece of form for the year..in fact called him chaser of the yearr...with plenty of folk agreeing :shy: ...I think it was in the lexus. That was the opinion of RPR or official handicaper that year..that decision to me was a total nonsense and was truly biased.
I have read those two other statements Bobbyjo...or should I call you writer X...no I won't..I'll show some manners and refer to you by your name :brows: ...what are you suggesting...he had speed to win a 2 mile champion chase as well???? :laughing:
give over...anyone could see the horse had great difficulty jumping fences at speed...hence his wins in slowly run...trial races...in Ireland...where he could run at his own pace. Those races are not competetive in Ireland as most trainers are using them for preps for the only target anyone cares about. BOS was very cleverly placed to mop up those trial races as it was clear he was never good enough to win a GC...superb training imho.
The horse was never a champion...he wasn't fast enough.
When faced with GC pace...he was WOEFULLY outpaced and made errors.
Thats what I saw anyway...it's no detriment to the horse..but anyone that wants to make him out to be a better horse than best mate is p*ssing in the wind and having themselves on...imho.
After he failed to win the GC one year someone posted a thread on TRF..might have been DJ...saying that even though BOS had not won the GC he had still put in the best piece of form for the year..in fact called him chaser of the yearr...with plenty of folk agreeing :shy: ...I think it was in the lexus. That was the opinion of RPR or official handicaper that year..that decision to me was a total nonsense and was truly biased.
I have read those two other statements Bobbyjo...or should I call you writer X...no I won't..I'll show some manners and refer to you by your name :brows: ...what are you suggesting...he had speed to win a 2 mile champion chase as well???? :laughing:
give over...anyone could see the horse had great difficulty jumping fences at speed...hence his wins in slowly run...trial races...in Ireland...where he could run at his own pace. Those races are not competetive in Ireland as most trainers are using them for preps for the only target anyone cares about. BOS was very cleverly placed to mop up those trial races as it was clear he was never good enough to win a GC...superb training imho.
The horse was never a champion...he wasn't fast enough.
When faced with GC pace...he was WOEFULLY outpaced and made errors.
Thats what I saw anyway...it's no detriment to the horse..but anyone that wants to make him out to be a better horse than best mate is p*ssing in the wind and having themselves on...imho.
So EC1 what is the reading of his John Durkan win. Over 2m4f beating Tiutchev in a race which was run at a slow pace, indicating that the winner would need to have a decent element of speed.
Less than 3 weeks later Tiutchev ran second in the King George.
Is it ignored because it doesn't fit your argument as a slow pace plodder.
Of course, we all know that the RPR and official handicapper are both biased. I think you are getting confused with Florida Pearl who was given NH performance of the year after his King George win over best mate. As far as I can remember I dont think Beef Or Salmon was ever judged to have run to the highest rating of the year. But you havent been one to let the facts get in the way of a controversial opinion before. So why change?
Less than 3 weeks later Tiutchev ran second in the King George.
Is it ignored because it doesn't fit your argument as a slow pace plodder.
Of course, we all know that the RPR and official handicapper are both biased. I think you are getting confused with Florida Pearl who was given NH performance of the year after his King George win over best mate. As far as I can remember I dont think Beef Or Salmon was ever judged to have run to the highest rating of the year. But you havent been one to let the facts get in the way of a controversial opinion before. So why change?
Harbinger
At the Start
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EC - your two statements that are factually incorrect are that
a) he beat some of the Gold Cup field further than the Gold Cup winner. He actually beat the future Gold Cup winner himself, as well as the second and third at Cheltenham that year.
b) he beat unfit horses. I'll leave it as an exercise for yourself to find out how many times War Of Attrition, Hedgehunter and Forget The Past had run already that season.
Garney - think it was Timeform that had him highest rated chaser the year WoA won the Gold Cup.
a) he beat some of the Gold Cup field further than the Gold Cup winner. He actually beat the future Gold Cup winner himself, as well as the second and third at Cheltenham that year.
b) he beat unfit horses. I'll leave it as an exercise for yourself to find out how many times War Of Attrition, Hedgehunter and Forget The Past had run already that season.
Garney - think it was Timeform that had him highest rated chaser the year WoA won the Gold Cup.
davidjohnson
At the Start
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- Jun 29, 2007
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- 3,434
It was indeed, and the Beef showed why at Down Royal. It was laughable some of the ratings given out by the Irish and British handicappers of the Punchestown race War of Attrition won to justify rating him higher than Beef or Salmon. Hi Cloy mid 160's over 3m :laughing:
EC1
On a break
So EC1 what is the reading of his John Durkan win. Over 2m4f beating Tiutchev in a race which was run at a slow pace, indicating that the winner would need to have a decent element of speed.
My reading is simple...he beat some 3 mile+ horses over 2m4f...you don't need speed to do that...if the race had been over 5f would it have proved BOS was a sprinter then?
If you want to make an argument that BOS had speed then it might be a good idea if the horses he beats are "speed" horses....because the distance a race is run is irrelevant if all the horses in the race need further. Tiutchev won over 3m1f afterwards...hardly speed city is it...3rd horse Rinci Ri hardly looks speed either does he?
So your argument makes no sense to me from that example
Is it ignored because it doesn't fit your argument as a slow pace plodder.
no it's ignored because I look at the opponents not the distance alone
Of course, we all know that the RPR and official handicapper are both biased. I think you are getting confused with Florida Pearl who was given NH performance of the year after his King George win over best mate. As far as I can remember I dont think Beef Or Salmon was ever judged to have run to the highest rating of the year. But you havent been one to let the facts get in the way of a controversial opinion before. So why change?
erm..I would read David's post above...I think you are the one that is confused. So the one that is not letting facts get in the way is your good self...but seeing as I don't want to make an unecessary personal dig at you back...I won't mention it
EC - your two statements that are factually incorrect are that
a) he beat some of the Gold Cup field further than the Gold Cup winner. He actually beat the future Gold Cup winner himself, as well as the second and third at Cheltenham that year.
not incorrect actually...I just omitted he beat the GC winner...because it's obvious to me that WOA was being "tried" at the distance with the intent of winning a GC if he appeared to truly stay...do you really think WOA ran to his best in that race with Cheltenham being his main target? I know which race I would want to win of the two...and I know which race I would use as stamina tester.
It seems to me that you think every time a horse runs it is 100% and is a machine...horses are readied for races..those in Ireland are of a secondary nature to Cheltenham...I'm sure you don't think that of course :dork: ...but when I read some stuff on forums it seems every horses is trying in every race according to some people.
BOS has mopped up these races because most trainers want the Chelteham win and use these races as learning curves..in WOA's case to see if he stayed.
Thats not running the horse down...he won the races...but he ain't no champion chaser as some seem to have wanted him to be...he was a good workmanlike horse...who was campaigned very cleverly but no way did have the gears to win a GC.
Anyone that thinks BOS didn't need a trip of about 4 miles really needs to be looking at the latter part of his career when he was outpaced in bottomless conditions and then does his running in the last half mile.
Have a look at WOA's GC...anyone still think BOS had speed?...he can hardly keep up with them...and jumps terribly whilst running at a speed way out of his comfort zone ...speed????
My reading is simple...he beat some 3 mile+ horses over 2m4f...you don't need speed to do that...if the race had been over 5f would it have proved BOS was a sprinter then?
If you want to make an argument that BOS had speed then it might be a good idea if the horses he beats are "speed" horses....because the distance a race is run is irrelevant if all the horses in the race need further. Tiutchev won over 3m1f afterwards...hardly speed city is it...3rd horse Rinci Ri hardly looks speed either does he?
So your argument makes no sense to me from that example
Is it ignored because it doesn't fit your argument as a slow pace plodder.
no it's ignored because I look at the opponents not the distance alone
Of course, we all know that the RPR and official handicapper are both biased. I think you are getting confused with Florida Pearl who was given NH performance of the year after his King George win over best mate. As far as I can remember I dont think Beef Or Salmon was ever judged to have run to the highest rating of the year. But you havent been one to let the facts get in the way of a controversial opinion before. So why change?
erm..I would read David's post above...I think you are the one that is confused. So the one that is not letting facts get in the way is your good self...but seeing as I don't want to make an unecessary personal dig at you back...I won't mention it
EC - your two statements that are factually incorrect are that
a) he beat some of the Gold Cup field further than the Gold Cup winner. He actually beat the future Gold Cup winner himself, as well as the second and third at Cheltenham that year.
not incorrect actually...I just omitted he beat the GC winner...because it's obvious to me that WOA was being "tried" at the distance with the intent of winning a GC if he appeared to truly stay...do you really think WOA ran to his best in that race with Cheltenham being his main target? I know which race I would want to win of the two...and I know which race I would use as stamina tester.
It seems to me that you think every time a horse runs it is 100% and is a machine...horses are readied for races..those in Ireland are of a secondary nature to Cheltenham...I'm sure you don't think that of course :dork: ...but when I read some stuff on forums it seems every horses is trying in every race according to some people.
BOS has mopped up these races because most trainers want the Chelteham win and use these races as learning curves..in WOA's case to see if he stayed.
Thats not running the horse down...he won the races...but he ain't no champion chaser as some seem to have wanted him to be...he was a good workmanlike horse...who was campaigned very cleverly but no way did have the gears to win a GC.
Anyone that thinks BOS didn't need a trip of about 4 miles really needs to be looking at the latter part of his career when he was outpaced in bottomless conditions and then does his running in the last half mile.
Have a look at WOA's GC...anyone still think BOS had speed?...he can hardly keep up with them...and jumps terribly whilst running at a speed way out of his comfort zone ...speed????
Tiutchev won four grade 1 chases.
2 over 2m, 2 over 2m4f.
Despite that you say "because the distance a race is run is irrelevant if all the horses in the race need further. Tiutchev won over 3m1f afterwards...hardly speed city is it"
You sir, are an idiot.
2 over 2m, 2 over 2m4f.
Despite that you say "because the distance a race is run is irrelevant if all the horses in the race need further. Tiutchev won over 3m1f afterwards...hardly speed city is it"
You sir, are an idiot.
EC1
On a break
and you are a very rude person with little idea how to read form...if I had made a posting like yours above on any forum I would have had a warning and be accused of being a trouble maker...I suppose you will get away with it though :brows:
you will be telling me next that a horse that wins at 6f at 2yo is a sprinter when at 3 when he wins over 10f
horses work towards their ideal trip..Tiutchev needed 3miles when BOS beat him..hence his KG run afterwards
if you can't argue your point with logic then don't blame me when your argument is blown out of the water...blame your own lack of knowledge of subject
you will be telling me next that a horse that wins at 6f at 2yo is a sprinter when at 3 when he wins over 10f
horses work towards their ideal trip..Tiutchev needed 3miles when BOS beat him..hence his KG run afterwards
if you can't argue your point with logic then don't blame me when your argument is blown out of the water...blame your own lack of knowledge of subject
Tiutchev's was third in the 2m champion chase three months after the Durkan. Running to a higher RPR that when winning his one Graded race over 3m1f. Speed city indeed.
Just like a 2yo 6f winner develops into a middle distance animal at 3, the summer as a 9yo is critical for staying chasers development.....
I'm putting this one away alongside The Listener being a suspect jumper and paddy power's giveaway specials in the EC1 joke file.
Just like a 2yo 6f winner develops into a middle distance animal at 3, the summer as a 9yo is critical for staying chasers development.....
I'm putting this one away alongside The Listener being a suspect jumper and paddy power's giveaway specials in the EC1 joke file.
EC1
On a break
instead of putting it away ...why not just shove it up yer backside Garney
Your arguments are p*ss weak...when you get your facts wrong...as with me muddling BOS up with FP...you don't stand corrected...just ignore your own lack of knowledge then arrogantly look down your snotty nose at someone by belittling previous threads
as it seems its ok to be rude on here now...i'm an idiot...whilst you are just basically a cock
we will both have to live with it
Your arguments are p*ss weak...when you get your facts wrong...as with me muddling BOS up with FP...you don't stand corrected...just ignore your own lack of knowledge then arrogantly look down your snotty nose at someone by belittling previous threads
as it seems its ok to be rude on here now...i'm an idiot...whilst you are just basically a cock
we will both have to live with it
I thought you were referring to the three time gold cup winner, and stating that BoS was never rated higher. Florida Pearl was the first year of Best Mate's three wins - much to the annoyance of Best Mate's supporters. My mistake, but hardly a misreading of form.
Beef or Salmon has run against War of Attrition four times
Down Royal 3m
Beef or Salmon bt War of Attrition by Nk
Punchestown 3m 1f
War of Attrition bt Beef or Salmon 2 1/2l
Cheltenham 3m2 1/2f
War of Attrition bt Beef Or Salmon by 19l
Leopardstown 3m
Beef or Salmon bt War of Attrition by 4l
On Beef or Salmon's cheltenham form, he wouldnt win one Grade 1 chase, not to mind 10, and only an idiot judges the horse solely on what he did in cheltenham. Since you admit to have read the form and not watched the listener before making pronouncements on his ability, it could be a silly assumption of me to make that you watched Beef or Salmon in races other than those in England. I think you have, but it wouldnt be unlike you.
Beef or Salmon has run against War of Attrition four times
Down Royal 3m
Beef or Salmon bt War of Attrition by Nk
Punchestown 3m 1f
War of Attrition bt Beef or Salmon 2 1/2l
Cheltenham 3m2 1/2f
War of Attrition bt Beef Or Salmon by 19l
Leopardstown 3m
Beef or Salmon bt War of Attrition by 4l
On Beef or Salmon's cheltenham form, he wouldnt win one Grade 1 chase, not to mind 10, and only an idiot judges the horse solely on what he did in cheltenham. Since you admit to have read the form and not watched the listener before making pronouncements on his ability, it could be a silly assumption of me to make that you watched Beef or Salmon in races other than those in England. I think you have, but it wouldnt be unlike you.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I was there the day he was second in the Betfair Chase. That was a very good run, much better than his efforts at Cheltenham.
As for the assumption that BoS was winning the egg and spoon Grade 1 races in Ireland because he wasnt being prepared to win a Gold Cup. Another idiotic opinion to have.
I would think that anything pre-christmas doesnt have much bearing on the Gold Cup. Most horses have a mid season target, before being prepped for the Gold Cup. The two main options are the King george or the Lexus. Every Gold Cup that I can remember since Imperial Call ran in one race or the other. Beef or Salmon raced against horses like Best Mate and Denman at Christmas.
So, horses may be prepared for the gold cup, and there maybe are easy pickings for Beef or Salmon in the interim. Grade 1 trials while horses are being prepared for Cheltenham, This is when Grade 1 races are soft and beef or salmon could be fully primed here to take advantage.
Beef or Salmons Grade 1 record in January and February
2003 - Hennessey - 1st
2004 - Didnt contest the race
2005 - Hennessy - 2nd to Rule Supreme
2006 - Hennessey - 1st to Hedgehunter
2007 - Hennessey - 1st to The Listener
2008 - Hennessey - 5th to The Listener
Sp he won 3 of his 10 Grade 1s in "trials" for Cheltenham. In at least, the first four of these six years Beef or Salmon was being prepared for Cheltenham and was finishing his preparation at leopardstown. He started favourite for the Gold Cup in 2006. The idea that the Gold Cup was an afterthought or a bonus for Beef or Salmon's connections holds some water for the past two years where any possibility of him acting on the course was dismissed. Up to 2006, winning at Cheltenham was the seasons aim.
I would think that anything pre-christmas doesnt have much bearing on the Gold Cup. Most horses have a mid season target, before being prepped for the Gold Cup. The two main options are the King george or the Lexus. Every Gold Cup that I can remember since Imperial Call ran in one race or the other. Beef or Salmon raced against horses like Best Mate and Denman at Christmas.
So, horses may be prepared for the gold cup, and there maybe are easy pickings for Beef or Salmon in the interim. Grade 1 trials while horses are being prepared for Cheltenham, This is when Grade 1 races are soft and beef or salmon could be fully primed here to take advantage.
Beef or Salmons Grade 1 record in January and February
2003 - Hennessey - 1st
2004 - Didnt contest the race
2005 - Hennessy - 2nd to Rule Supreme
2006 - Hennessey - 1st to Hedgehunter
2007 - Hennessey - 1st to The Listener
2008 - Hennessey - 5th to The Listener
Sp he won 3 of his 10 Grade 1s in "trials" for Cheltenham. In at least, the first four of these six years Beef or Salmon was being prepared for Cheltenham and was finishing his preparation at leopardstown. He started favourite for the Gold Cup in 2006. The idea that the Gold Cup was an afterthought or a bonus for Beef or Salmon's connections holds some water for the past two years where any possibility of him acting on the course was dismissed. Up to 2006, winning at Cheltenham was the seasons aim.
rorydelargy
At the Start
I was a layer of BOS in that race, but wishful thinking doesn't send horses off favourite for Gold Cups. The "thick paddies" among us (not your words I know) couldn't have managed that if the generic market didn't rate the horse.
Doesn't change the fact Rory, that to any dispassionate onlooker the horse hated Cheltenham and was never going to win a Gold Cup. I was totally mystified by it at the time, and I still am! - since as you say it must have taken an awful lot of money on... I don't know anyone over here who would have given him a prayer.
But as I've said often on this thread and before, I don't think the horse's record should be knocked because of his Cheltenham record.
People do get odd fancies - I know someone who convinced himself that Cailin Alainn was going to win a big chase at Cheltenham this season on her record in Ireland - I was just as mystified by that! he's English btw and usually a very good judge!
But as I've said often on this thread and before, I don't think the horse's record should be knocked because of his Cheltenham record.
People do get odd fancies - I know someone who convinced himself that Cailin Alainn was going to win a big chase at Cheltenham this season on her record in Ireland - I was just as mystified by that! he's English btw and usually a very good judge!
I dont think Beef or Salmon wasnt nearly as popular in Ireland than people think he is - at least for the majority of his career. For instance, I think it was only recently that he was receiving receptions akin to what Best Mate received for his Lexus win. Hourigan isnt exactly the most popular trainer in Ireland either, and I think much of his recent popularity is due to the widespread criticism he used to receive in the English press and the horses longevity.
I dont think I ever backed him for the Gold Cup on the day. I do remember having him ante post one year at big odds, after he had won at Punchestown. In fact, for the amount of times I have defended the horse, I think I have only ever backed him at Down Royal, and maybe in a couple of hurdle races.
Anyway. I agree with Rory. I think most Irish people knew that Cheltenham wasnt his place by then, but he had performed more consistently that year than before, and he looked to have been jumping better than befre. But he was favourite by default that year as alternatives were thin on the ground. KK injured, BM dead, horses like Kingscliffe, Monkerhostin, Cornish Rebel, Royal Auclair, Take The Stand were seen as the alternatives. Each with holes in their form. The first three home that year were Irish trained, and had the race been run in Ireland, he would have been fancied to beat them. As I mentioned earlier, whatever tiny hope that connections and supporters had that the horse acted at Cheltenham ended that day.
I dont think I ever backed him for the Gold Cup on the day. I do remember having him ante post one year at big odds, after he had won at Punchestown. In fact, for the amount of times I have defended the horse, I think I have only ever backed him at Down Royal, and maybe in a couple of hurdle races.
Anyway. I agree with Rory. I think most Irish people knew that Cheltenham wasnt his place by then, but he had performed more consistently that year than before, and he looked to have been jumping better than befre. But he was favourite by default that year as alternatives were thin on the ground. KK injured, BM dead, horses like Kingscliffe, Monkerhostin, Cornish Rebel, Royal Auclair, Take The Stand were seen as the alternatives. Each with holes in their form. The first three home that year were Irish trained, and had the race been run in Ireland, he would have been fancied to beat them. As I mentioned earlier, whatever tiny hope that connections and supporters had that the horse acted at Cheltenham ended that day.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Here we go again, EC1
Your suggestion that Tuitchev needed 3m is absolute cobblers, mate.
You'll be telling me that Edredon Bleu was a 3-miler next, just because he won a King George, and all those top-class runs over 2m and 3m were just him "working towards" his ideal trip.
It's complete mince, and you should know better.
Not sure if its already been mentioned but the combination of the bigger fields, unforgiving fences and quicker earlier pace struck me as being the real negative factors at Cheltenham
He sometimes seemd to simply lose a bit of confidence. Mistakes came tooe asily
He was a lovely beast in many ways (sad to see him almost spooked on his last visit there), but not been able to seemingly cope with those factors was always a negative for me
He sometimes seemd to simply lose a bit of confidence. Mistakes came tooe asily
He was a lovely beast in many ways (sad to see him almost spooked on his last visit there), but not been able to seemingly cope with those factors was always a negative for me
I think that is a pretty fair assessment about Beef Or Salmon at Cheltenham. He did lead for a circuit in one of the Gold Cup's yet still ran miles below form. He didnt like the place. Its hard to get a complete grip on his problem. Its universally acknowledged that his problems began with his fall there. That Hourigan didn't diagnose a back problem for a year after didn't help. Beef or Salmon didn't make mistakes really, more he became too careful. When he propped into his fences at Chelt on good ground, he was losing 5l a time, and maybe up and down around Cheltenham always turning track maybe wasnt the best place for a horse with a bad back. He didnt jump a fence quickly against Best Mate in their first lexus but was able to be 2l down on the turn in.
By the time his jumping had improved to being adequate (never good or convincing really) - the jump at the third last in his Lexus win where he took 2l out of BM is probably his finest moment, and he pinged each of the last four fences to reel in The Listener - he had lost his speed that made him a threat to the best.
Just not good enough when all is said and done, but if horses are only judged on their Cheltenham appearances, Desert Orchid was only an average Gold Cup winner. I wouldnt play down Dessie's amazing achievements away from Cheltenham because of it.
By the time his jumping had improved to being adequate (never good or convincing really) - the jump at the third last in his Lexus win where he took 2l out of BM is probably his finest moment, and he pinged each of the last four fences to reel in The Listener - he had lost his speed that made him a threat to the best.
Just not good enough when all is said and done, but if horses are only judged on their Cheltenham appearances, Desert Orchid was only an average Gold Cup winner. I wouldnt play down Dessie's amazing achievements away from Cheltenham because of it.
I think the bad back was a valid excuse for a year or so. He had looked a natural jumper as a novice, but definitely after the fall something was wrong physically and mentally with him. I think when he was a pitiful third behind Best Mate and Le Coudray, he was completely wrong. Maybe winning the Durkan before that made Hourigan think that everything was ok with him.
His defeats in later years werent down to his back.
His defeats in later years werent down to his back.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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- 16,050
51 runs in 7 years, with 19 victories (ten in G1 company) over fences, hurdles and the Flat, would tend to suggest otherwise, clivex.
Perhaps you were thinking of Harchibald?