10 Grade 1s

I think as all bar 1 of his 10 Grade 1 victories came on ground worse than good (pver half of those on bottlomless gorund) he clearly had a liking for testing going - something he never got at Cheltenham. Som ehave argued he didnlt like travelling - though I guess his Haydock runs dispel this theory.

I think the fairest conclusion to draw from his poor cheltenham record has to be a combination of the going but probably more significantly the undulations. Granted, he won two Grade 1s at Down Royal which is an undulating track, but it is more galloping than Cheltenham.

IMO at Cheltenham he simply wouldn't let himself down on the undulations on ground faster than he would prefer.

He wasn't the best chaser of his generation, but he wasn't too bad either, and cribbing over minutae detracts (slightly unfairly) from the great achivements he had on the track in Ireland.
 
On Beef or Salmon's cheltenham form, he wouldnt win one Grade 1 chase, not to mind 10, and only an idiot judges the horse solely on what he did in cheltenham. Since you admit to have read the form and not watched the listener before making pronouncements on his ability, it could be a silly assumption of me to make that you watched Beef or Salmon in races other than those in England. I think you have, but it wouldnt be unlike you.

Before we start again...don't be calling me an idiot...and don't be calling my threads a joke ok?

the mods here like elsewhere like a "whipping boy"...someone they can send pms to telling them to behave...you had better have had one because I get one once a month on here and I post very rarely these days due to the fact that others can say wtf they want to me and get away with it.

I can post all day arguing the toss with you with no ill feeling...but if you want to get personal then I will do the same...but I didn't start the game...you did.

Yes I do watch races...and you wouldn't have a clue what is "unlike me"...seeing as you don't know bugger all about me...so it's fair comment from to tell you that you don't make assumptions like that when you have not a clue about what I watch and don't watch.

My view of BOS...and you either agree or not is what I have already expressed...watch WOA's GC and tell me what you think of BOS.s performance...slow jumping...lacking pace...is what I see...nevermind what set-square we use on lbs per length in other races...or calculators of lb per lengths...he clearly is not cut out for THAT race.

I think you will find that each horse needs different preps for the GC...some trainers use races to learn things about horses...WOA was a classic example of a trainer "trying" him at 3 miles...winning was irrelevant...he wanted the jockey's view on whether the horse stayed or not. Using WOA to rate BOS in those circumstances was a nonsense to me.

Lets get something else clear...I don't hang..limpet like on the back of certain horses...or jockeys ...just because they are English or Irish...I judge on what I think their ability level is...bias is a joke to me...and those that display it usually hold views that are worthless to me.

You can bring what you want up...but BOS was not a speed horse...he could not jump at speed..he may well have had flat toe late on...but thats worthless if you cannot jump at a decent pace....he needed races to be run slowly to enable him to get over fences...that was his main flaw...the race had to be steady or he got too far behind...like in the GC...it's bugger all to do with Cheltenham...it's the pace of the race. If I suggested a horse knew that today he didn't like the course...so ran bad on purpose..I'm sure I would again be an idiot in your eyes...don't see you calling anyone else an idiot though on this thread...even though it is suggested he didn't "like" Cheltenham...quite an intelligent being one would think...oh sh*t it's Cheltenham...I'll down tools...b*llox to winng today shrug::

You can get a set-sqare and use AB comparisons all day...it won't make him a fast jumper of fences...and in championship races at some point you will need to be just that...hence BM excelled in the GC...he was superb at speed at fences.

Now I have tried to explain here why I think BOS failed to be the champion many WANTED him to be...it's my opinion...but mine is as valid as yours or anyones elses...cut the patronising insulting sh*te and I am sure we can discuss many issues...but I am not some kind of jackass you can come on here and p*ss on...ok?
 
EC1, your opinion of BoS is that he wasn't suited to the Gold Cup because he wasn't good enough.

That's fair enough and it's your perogative to hold that view, but it dismisses the possibility that the horse didn't travel well, or failed to act on the course at Cheltenham. It furthermore implies that BoS's wins in Ireland were due to the slow old boat only ever beating even slower old boats, or animals that were looking beyond to other targets.

I frankly find your assertion that WoA wasn't trying in the Lexus woefully misguided. If connections weren't 'trying' that day, how the hell were they supposed to know whether the horse stayed the trip or not? If he wasn't put into the race, then they would have been completely clueless as to whether he was going to get another quarter-mile at Cheltenham or not - especially on a stiffer track.

The simple fact is that WoA was trying, and was beaten fair and square. But you can't accept that, because it doesn't sit well with your long-held belief that BoS was simply not that good.

Indeed, it is YOU that is WANTING BoS to not be a champion - not the other way around.

Like you say, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. It just happens to be flawed, imo.

There you go. I couldn't have been nicer. :P :D
 
EC1 - you dont think horses arent suited by certain courses? Is that correct?

That going right handed and left handed is exactly the same for all horses
That a flat track and a undulating track are the same
That a tight turning track suits all horses alike
That Desert Orchid was as suited to Kempton as Cheltenham
That Racing Demon was as suited to Huntingdon as Cheltenham

Tiutchev is placed in the Champion Chase but is labelled too slow to take on Beef or Salmon at 2m4f three months earlier. Its a stretch but it suits your argument. You are now saying that Beef or Salmon had toe at the end of his races. So now he did have speed? Speed enough to win on the flat. What made Beef or Salmon a threat to Best Mate was that he had the speed to live with him. He didnt have the jumping.

So its not the fact that he was a slow old plodder anymore. It was that he couldnt jump. Of course, no irishman alive could see that Beef or Salmon had problems jumping. And if you look at the 2007 race, Beef or Salmon led for the first circuit, jumped ok yet still finished tailed off. But dont bother because it doesnt suit your arguement.

As Sunybay said earlier, BM was made for cheltenham. A strong traveller and a beautiful jumper. BoS wasnt. No one I know has claimed that he was a champion. He was a very good one. And far better than those looking at his cheltenham record would believe. Just like Best Mate was a better horse than a 1/2l defeat of Sir Rembrandt would suggest.

I dont know anything about you, other that what you post on this forum, and correct me if I was wrong but you admitted made the assumption that The Listener was a poor jumper by looking at his form figures. You are entitled to have this opinion. I am entitled to think that anyone, not just you, but anyone who has this opinion doesn't have a clue when it comes to evaluating horse racing form. Shorthand, an idiot in relation to horse racing form. You are entitled to think I am a cock for having that opinion. Feel free.
 
Originally posted by davidjohnson@May 2 2008, 04:38 PM
Wasn't Beef or Salmon once fourth in a Gold Cup beaten less than 4 lengths?
Click to expand...
He was. Staying on after being a long way behind at the bottom of the hill. (Very reminiscent of Halcon Generlardais's run this year.) Before that run, I actually doubted that he stayed the Gold Cup trip because he had so much pace, and following his win at Punchestown, I thought he had a real chance of winning the Gold Cup. Took 20s and 16s. The rest is history.
 
Originally posted by davidjohnson@May 2 2008, 04:38 PM
Wasn't Beef or Salmon once fourth in a Gold Cup beaten less than 4 lengths?
Click to expand...
Fair point - though he would have eaten Harbour Pilot and Sir Rembrandt for breakfast around Leopardstown in the soft so I wouldn't necessarily point to that piece of form as proof he could act around the track when required.

I actually also think that Best Mate ran well below the form shown in the 2003 Gold Cup which he turned into a procession.

It is interesting that 2 fine Irish Chasers of the past decade, Florida Pearl and Beefie won 10 Grade 1s each. And yet Florida Pearl is generally regarded as top draw whereas for some reason Beefie doesn't seem to get the same credit. Admittedly Florida won a King George - and indeed won twice at Cheltenham. However Beefie's achievements are still to be applauded.
 
fair enough responses Garney and Grassy

I'm sorry if I have caused any upset and so induce the "idiot" tag...I just don't agree with many of the points you both hold.

I still think many "rosy" views held of BOS are biased...as in the same way BM has as much attention..but alwaysin the negative....I can't see how one horse can achieve so much...get constant stick..the other achieves a little less...but is some kind of wonder horse...thats the general view I get reading views here and in the past on TRF.

One won 3 Gold Cups...the other...very similar to Florida Pearl...fell short through one reason or another.
 
I don't think it's true that Best Mate got stick, EC1.

I think that whenever he is debated, the same issues generally come to the fore; that he was cautiously campaigned and that there were some holes in his overall form.

But it is readily conded that he was a thoroughly top-class animal, who showed a very high-level of form in his second Gold Cup and his Lexus win.

Best Mate's record doesn't really need any defending. In my opinion, neither does Beef Or Salmon's, but because he never won a Gold Cup, some people think that he is fair game, and that any race he did win must therefore be sh*ite - which is utterly incorrect, imo.
 
I think Kauto Star's experience this year shows how hard it is to be campaigned aggressively and win back to back Gold Cups.

Best Mate was a true champion, however, although he won three gold cups, he never needed to put in a 190 type performance that merited the Arkle comparisons (from connections and supporters). Everytime he got beaten or got close to getting beaten there were mitigating circumstances. But even still over 3m2f at Cheltenham in march he would beat BoS 10 times out of 10. In Ireland it would have been close to 50/50.

I think Beef Or Salmon's popularity in Ireland went to another level with the retirement of Moscow Flyer and the injury of Kicking King.
 
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