2009 Arc.

Euronymous said:
Maybe, it might be more his love for the track then. He ran a blinder behind Rail Link in the Niel.

I think history will record his Eclipse and Irish Champion victories as STS best races, he's a few pounds shy of his best over 12f but it would have taken a 135 animal to have beaten him today.
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I disagree - had a 135 horse turned up today he would have just pushed STS to further heights - just like RVW did in the Eclipse .
 
Possibly, but I think like Brigadier Gerard his class got him through that. A Montjeu or Peintre Celebre would have taken him today, but those two would have been easily handled over 10f.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
He's already got the ratings in the bag from Sandown and Leopardstown. Today was about the achievement rather than the absolute performance. His biggest rival today was history - the one that tells you that you can't go out and win a Group 1 every month from May and then still expect to win an Arc (let alone do it so easily).
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Exactly and horses like STS will always be underrated by ratings junkies. I find it hard to be objective having been a massive fan all the way through:lol: and having backed him to win the Guineas
 
Euronymous said:
Possibly, but I think like Brigadier Gerard his class got him through that. A Montjeu or Peintre Celebre would have taken him today, but those two would have been easily handled over 10f.
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Well we will never know but I think that all the evidence through his career suggests he would have picked up again and shaken them off .He is a much much better 12f horse than BG was - he barely scraped home against a Cup horse in the KG .

Alandi ! what a day for the Aga , Oxx and Kinane !
 
Ardross said:
I have thought it all year Fame and Glory is the Meadow Court to STS's Sea Bird - a horse that would have been a champ in a normal year and his fans just couldn't get over the fact that this is not a normal year.

I think even more than I did after the Derby that had they gone very fast that STS would have been even more impressive as he wouldn't have wasted any energy pulling.

Until the last 50 yds when he faded Vision de Etat made it 8 G1 winners in line behind him
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Exactly, it's not just the unique sequence of a G1 every month, it's been the manner of his victories which is so extraordinary. I've been amazed that some on here - some very experienced observers - can't see what is so different about this horse! He's in a quite different class form anything else, this season (or most seasons) and the MANNER of his running and winning displays it

The best Ballydoyle horse each year always gets hyped as if he is a great champion, and maybe it would have been the same with F&G this year - but he ain't. He's one of those good horses (like Conduit) who win a couple of G1s a season when things go right on the day: we see them every season

Is it just blind loyalty to Ballydoyle I wonder. We had the same in previous years with people dissing Manduro and New Approach who but for their injuries would have proved their superiority to the respective Ballydoyle stars that year (imo).
 
The bare form of the Arc today is nothing special. Even if Youmzain is back to his best, it makes todays bare figure no more than mid 130's and this leaves you with a 6-y-o mare La Boum improving by 10 lbs, but the ratings just don't tell the full story of today's efforts, pulling like he did and still winning in the manner that he did, and having been on the go since May. Surely there are no doubters remaining, and if there are, perhaps they should find another interest, ortherwise I feel they may well go forever unfulfilled.
 
Thats spot on. Did any horse in the race (that had a chance) have such a difficult run? And pull so much? And yet there wasnt the slightest hint of him coming to the end of his tether at the end. It could even be that 12f is his best distance? Turned it it may well have been Dancing braves

The ratings argument is of little interest to me. But almost his best performance could arguably be the guineas when he was (as he looked at the time) a middle distance horse thrashing top milers

An absolutely wonderful horse

I think he could run next week if required too.... You sense that this racing business barely bothers him (although a brilliant trainer helps)
 
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Both of them were a bit quirky (for NA, read: a lot) - no guarantees they'd have held their form.
 
Apparently we went to 3 in running on BF! I wasn't looking though, I wanted to watch the race without distractions
 
I was making a general point, as should have been obvious. We see it every season on here!
 
We see Ballydoyle producing champions every season, too. The two are probably connected :lol:
 
At one point I did think one of them might win.

Fecked up a bit really, I put a lay in on F&G at 5 thinking he would play the RVW part today, probably not close to being matched but I did consider shoving some on STS at 6/4 just in case. Decided against it.

Lost around £400 on Fame now in two races, he's killed me this year. Thank god for the handicaps.
 
I think the thing is that the Steve M's and Galileo's of this world work out races through logic and are usually right rather than wrong. What they seem to have missed about this horse is that he rewrites the rules !

Can't keep going all year - oh yes he can

Won't stay - yes he will

OK won't stay in a 12f race run at a proper pace - erm oh yes he will

F & G is going to improve more than him - er no

Softish ground will make it hard for him to win the Irish Champion - erm no again

The field will be too big - well he got into trouble a bit but he is a one-off so he got out of it .No problem

He doesn't pull away from them and over 12f that means he is tying up - er no , they say he is dossing and indeed he really is dossing .

Kinane is interestingly quoted as saying that was his easiest win all year today - and to win like that after the race developed like it did is the mark of the greatest horse ever .

Arkle's flat equivalent has arrived !
 
Well I'm not sure apobut that Ardross! My point is that certain forumites are always more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Ballydoyle horses and to discount other people's horses, and often continue to do so in the face of the evidence. I'm very dispassionate about Ballydoyle horses, and I think some of them run well above their 'class' due to brilliant training. In addition they are always hyped.

Can I point out that last year I won the forum Classics Comp by getting almost *double* the points of anyone else in the forum. That was because I didn't get dazzled by the Ballydoyle reputation and picked other horses, on their merits and form, and part of that was keeping faith in New Approach.

So I'm not talking bollocks here - it's something I remarked on when I first joined the forum, then stopped commenting on. But I haven't stopped noticing it! In fact I made the mistake myself early this year beofre the Guineas, falling for AOB's pre-race spin on Mastercraftsman - who he later admitted was severely undercooked!

Anyway it's not worth having an argy bargy about today of all days: we can all agree that we've seen something extraordinary today. Acc to the sportinglife write up (very good btw) the Guineas/Eclipse/Arc treble is a first!
 
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Can anyone please tell me where I said Fame And Glory would beat STS in the either the Irish Champion or indeed the Arc. I said STS would win the Irish Champion but gave F&G a chance today but no more than that. I also said before and after The Derby that he was a 130 + horse.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
He's already got the ratings in the bag from Sandown and Leopardstown. Today was about the achievement rather than the absolute performance. His biggest rival today was history - the one that tells you that you can't go out and win a Group 1 every month from May and then still expect to win an Arc (let alone do it so easily).
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Absolutely.
 
Ardross said:
For crying out loud DO he never beats horses very far - just with utter authority . Despite all the trouble he ran into he goes through that gap like a rocket , storms clear and then dosses through the last 100yds and sails past the post ears pricked

....

I think even more than I did after the Derby that had they gone very fast that STS would have been even more impressive as he wouldn't have wasted any energy pulling.
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I do have eyes, Ardross. I can see that. I'm just saying the bare form isn't that great. The manner of it was.

I also believe if they had gone much faster he'd have been much more impressive.

I also believe if Murtagh rode him he'd have won far more easily.
 
Euronymous said:
Possibly, but I think like Brigadier Gerard his class got him through that. A Montjeu or Peintre Celebre would have taken him today, but those two would have been easily handled over 10f.
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It's impossible to be certain about that. It would certainly have been a race to behold!
 
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