Bar the Bull
At the Start
I agree with Clive's first paragraph.
9/11
- Thread starter trackside528
- Start date
Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
How far away is acceptable though?
Just curious: where is the closest mosque \ islamic centre at present?
Two wrongs do not a right make, Clive. AQ is not a state and has no legitimacy. While I do defend any group's right to say or print what they believe, it has to be within the law and must not promote violence or hatred. It would appear that how much money you have dictates what views are permissible in many US States, which makes the tacit support of the rabid Christian movement every bit as suspect when you consider how many decry Pakistan's supposed tacit support of AQ et al. Where's the difference ?
It is precisely because the US promotes the ideal of racial and religious tolerance that they should have, if not welcomed, at least ignored this new build, as by drawing attention to it in the way that has been accomplished do far, they have done far more damage than by leaving well alone.
Sheikh
At the Start
How would Nationalist proposals to build an Irish centre on the site of Remembrance day bombing in Enniskillen have gone down ! They wouldn't, in fact they wouldn't have even seen the light of day which is what makes this so extraordinary. Can't believe this idea wasn't quashed before it grew legs. Americans are good at lots of things but common sense isn't a strong point.
That is the problem – you really think it is comparible? That an American Muslim cannot have a community centre there because a few nutters from a different country used the “Muslim cause” as an excuse?
If there centre is not allowed there - perhaps Muslims should not be allowed at ground zero full stop? I see no difference...if people are going to find a community centre offence, what will the sight of a woman in an Abaya/Burka do?
Sheikh
At the Start
I think both scenarios are rather similar. Reasonable people using their heads will know that the vast majority of Nationalists/ Muslims (incert as applicable)do not condone murder but reasonable people do not cause the problems it's the 'few nutters' that do. These atrocities where falsely carried out in the name of Irish Nationalism and Islam. Surely reasonable people from those communities can see that their presence on a site where an atrocity was carried out supposedly in their name may not be the most sensitive choice made and might stir up the 'few nutters' and be offensive (rightly or wrongly) to people who are still grieving.
Again, from a political point of view, I can't understand how this plan ever made it through New Yorks planning process.
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Firstly that Pastor does not "have money" (as far as i can see)
Secondly theres a huge difference. Elements within the Pakistan security services have clear links o AQ and the taleban. Even the goverment there admits its a problem
Tell me where there is support in the US administation for an organisation that promotes and craves genocide and a new holocaust for those who are not of their beliefs? That is what AQ stands for. Do you need to see the quotes?
Explain why American Muslims would want to be provocative at a time when they are deeply mistrusted as it is? It is almost as if they are not American - they are.
Some might think it is a shade provocative, but then again a growing percentage of Americans think Obama is a Muslim...
I would think back a few decades the Nationalist movement, including its violent wing, had plenty of support amongst the general Nationalist public in the Northern and border county regions. Something I am certain the vast majority of Muslims in the States oppose - so why should they have to take any slack for what has been done.
I would imagine they did not look for the "closest possible" site to ground zero - but picked their site, it was opposed and then they are asking themselves well why can't they?
Sheikh
At the Start
Not quite following you there. You can believe something and strive for it without killing or condoning killing for it.
Most Irish people, in a perfect World, like the notion of a United Ireland but they do not condone murdering for it. I could not see Nationalists wanting my hypothetical Irish Centre on the bomb site in Enniskillen and than being surprised when the relatives of the victims and wider Unionist Community got upset by the proposal !! I just don't get it !
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Around in circles here....you say they did it to be provocative but can give me know good reason why an American Muslim would want to be provocative to their own country regarding an attack that fellow American Muslims were killed.
Nowadays that is of course correct and that is why things are different now - a complete sea change in public mood. But back decades ago there was strong support for violent action amongst main stream nationalists North and South of the border.
My point is that in America right now, the American Muslims who are being stopped from building this centre did not ever in the past or do not currently support what happened on 9/11. That is why the two examples you gave are not comparible.
Sheikh
At the Start
It is a very close comparison you just choose not to accept it.
)Whys that Hamm??? must admit I wouldnt really know what the support for violence was amongst that community and more than i would really know what it was amongst the protestants. Polls tell you nothing and whilst on the one hand people might have knee jerk responses, they feel a bit different when theyt see body parts all over the street
I dont actually believe most people knew whether they supported it or not
I dont actually believe most people knew whether they supported it or not
The Muslims who crashed into the Towers had no support or very little amongst American Muslims - correct?
The IRA and such groups had support amongst the Nationalist community at the time of troubles a few decades ago. My family is from the border counties - there was huge sympathy for the cause from the local communities which was the reason the IRA was so "successful".
So to use the comparison is just wrong and inaccurate.
The SDLP had the support of the Nationalists that voted - the now Sinn Fein vote just did not bother to vote decades ago.
I know you said that....but I stated because people "see it" does not mean it is right. Like I said a growing percentage of people in the States think Obama is a Muslim...that sort of ignorance should be accepted because that is the way it is?
No one answered me earlier - if it is deeply insensitve for this centre to be used by Muslims, surely the prospect of any Muslim visiting ground zero is insensitive particularly one as visible as a Muslim woman in traditional dress? I am sure most will say that is ridiculous, but by stopping this centre going ahead it opens up a huge can of worms that will be stirred up in some sections.
trackside528
At the Start
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Surely though there are a number of differences between the two though.
For a start the situation in Northern Ireland was/is a highly localised conflict with a clear - and what was perceived as realistic (looking at it from from the perspective of many people at the time) - objective. Despite the religious component which undoubtedly existed (and still exists), it was not ultimately built upon religious foundations (or anything remotely nearing the Jihadist crusade extremist Muslims use to justify their actions) in the same way that Al Qai'da is.
The "war on terror" (for lack of a better term) is being conducted on a global scale with objectives so extreme that they are actually very rarely even discussed. What's mare, the majority of Irish Catholics (myself included) are in favour of a United Ireland. The same cannot be said vis a vis Al Qai'da and the Muslim religion. They are totally disconnected
The notion that Al Qai'da and the Muslim's proposing to build this community centre are bound together by religion is nonsense; their interpretations of their respective religion - and the conduct that comes as a consequence of those interpretation's - are so different that they cannot simply be button-holed into the 'same religion - must be a similarity there' argument.
Law-abiding American Muslims wishing to practice their religion should not be forced to bow to public pressure about something that 'looks bad' to people who are too ignorant to understand that the religion they practice could not be further from the extremist beliefs and interpretations of Al Qai'da etc.
edit: cross-posted with Gal!
Not meaning to call Sheikh, or anyone else on this thread, ignorant either. More a general point.
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