9/11

I know you said that....but I stated because people "see it" does not mean it is right. Like I said a growing percentage of people in the States think Obama is a Muslim...that sort of ignorance should be accepted because that is the way it is?


No one answered me earlier - if it is deeply insensitve for this centre to be used by Muslims, surely the prospect of any Muslim visiting ground zero is insensitive particularly one as visible as a Muslim woman in traditional dress? I am sure most will say that is ridiculous, but by stopping this centre going ahead it opens up a huge can of worms that will be stirred up in some sections.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

Unfortunately people can't separate the warped people behind September 11th and Muslim people in general. If they can't do it, and are 'horrified' by the location of the cultural centre, then that is their problem.

This really is a non-issue..
 
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Surely though there are a number of differences between the two though.

For a start the situation in Northern Ireland was/is a highly localised conflict with a clear - and what was perceived as realistic (looking at it from from the perspective of many people at the time) - objective. Despite the religious component which undoubtedly existed (and still exists), it was not ultimately built upon religious foundations (or anything remotely nearing the Jihadist crusade extremist Muslims use to justify their actions) in the same way that Al Qai'da is.

The "war on terror" (for lack of a better term) is being conducted on a global scale with objectives so extreme that they are actually very rarely even discussed. What's mare, the majority of Irish Catholics (myself included) are in favour of a United Ireland. The same cannot be said vis a vis Al Qai'da and the Muslim religion. They are totally disconnected

The notion that Al Qai'da and the Muslim's proposing to build this community centre are bound together by religion is nonsense; their interpretations of their respective religion - and the conduct that comes as a consequence of those interpretation's - are so different that they cannot simply be button-holed into the 'same religion - must be a similarity there' argument.

Law-abiding American Muslims wishing to practice their religion should not be forced to bow to public pressure about something that 'looks bad' to people who are too ignorant to understand that the religion they practice could not be further from the extremist beliefs and interpretations of Al Qai'da etc.

edit: cross-posted with Gal!

Not meaning to call Sheikh, or anyone else on this thread, ignorant either. More a general point.

Very good post..
 
It is a very close comparison you just choose not to accept it.

It isn't really, you should have said a Catholic Church - as the media and (stupid) people keep referring to the proposed Islamic centre as a mosque. A large part of the problem is that similar elements of society who view Obama as a Muslim and can't distinguish between Islam and extremist are jumping on the bandwagon and have blown this issue up out of all proportion.

I don't doubt there is an element of perversity (using the centre as a stiff middle finger) behind the proposal to build the centre that close to Ground Zero - but there's still no legal reason why they can't build it there.

The efforts of those who are opposed to the centre would be better placed in seeking to mediate and appeal to those behind the project to site it elsewhere - in this way something good can perhaps come out of this whole debacle.

The closest mosque is approx 400m away - under the same logic surely this is also too close to Ground Zero and should be moved?:blink: Or is an existing building 400m away perfectly fine, but a new one 200m away is completely abominable?
 
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The same cannot be said vis a vis Al Qai'da and the Muslim religion. They are totally disconnected

It si totally disconnected from ths shia arm but most definately not from Wahhabi islam and various other Sunni sects
 
Surely though there are a number of differences between the two though.

For a start the situation in Northern Ireland was/is a highly localised conflict with a clear - and what was perceived as realistic (looking at it from from the perspective of many people at the time) - objective. Despite the religious component which undoubtedly existed (and still exists), it was not ultimately built upon religious foundations (or anything remotely nearing the Jihadist crusade extremist Muslims use to justify their actions) in the same way that Al Qai'da is.

The "war on terror" (for lack of a better term) is being conducted on a global scale with objectives so extreme that they are actually very rarely even discussed. What's mare, the majority of Irish Catholics (myself included) are in favour of a United Ireland. The same cannot be said vis a vis Al Qai'da and the Muslim religion. They are totally disconnected

The notion that Al Qai'da and the Muslim's proposing to build this community centre are bound together by religion is nonsense; their interpretations of their respective religion - and the conduct that comes as a consequence of those interpretation's - are so different that they cannot simply be button-holed into the 'same religion - must be a similarity there' argument.

Law-abiding American Muslims wishing to practice their religion should not be forced to bow to public pressure about something that 'looks bad' to people who are too ignorant to understand that the religion they practice could not be further from the extremist beliefs and interpretations of Al Qai'da etc.

edit: cross-posted with Gal!

Not meaning to call Sheikh, or anyone else on this thread, ignorant either. More a general point.

Great post, tracks.
 
Ok If you want to look into the detail there's about three billion (give or take one) differences. I think most people probably understood the bare comparison that I was making.

.

My point is that in America right now, the American Muslims who are being stopped from building this centre did not ever in the past or do not currently support what happened on 9/11. That is why the two examples you gave are not comparible.

I understand the point you are making and I did the first time you made it.
There was of course support for force to be used in this Country over the generations and no one is too far removed from it through their ancestry, however there was never any support for the kind of atrocity committed at Enniskillen.
Likewise, I imagine many Muslims in the US support the idea of a Palestinian homeland and the fight for same but very few would condone acts where innocent people are murdered through suicide bombs or in this case the destruction of the twin towers . For the sake of this discussion lets say American Muslims have no feelings of solidarity with people in the middle east.Surely,even taking into account how unfair it is and how unjustified to associate ordinary decent Muslims with this atrocity, surely they must have forseen that choosing ground zero as a site for an Islamic centre , a site where people hijacked Islam to wrongfully act in their name would be a devisive choice.
 
AQ's attacks had nothing to do with Palestine. OBL and his bunch were notoriously disinterested in that part of the world until it became convenient for them to hitch it to the bandwagon

For those that sneer about the "war on terror" perhaps they would like to make a suggestion as to how afganistan should have been dealt with?

Leave it as it is? A military and emotional homeland for thousnads of would be terrorists aligning themsleves with an organisation that simply belives in the death and genocide of non believers wherever they are? with Pakistans isi supplying nuclear technology too?

As ever, the left have no answers although admittedly they are at a disadvantage because an answer would require intelligence and thought

Without doubt has been heavily knocked back since 9/11, especially in last few years. They scored some own goals (bombs in Jordan were a serious mistake) and maybe the tide has naturally turned against them in the islamic world. But the invasion of afganistan was absolutely necessary. The taleban had their chance to avoid trouble and they refused to take it
 
Just Google 'Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline' and you will see why Britain, the USA and assorted UN countries are there, not because the Taleban stone people to death and imprison women in educationless lives of unending domestic slavery - after all, they were the very people we anxiously got onside when those blasted Russkies invaded the benighted country. We briskly supplied them with the ammunition with which they now whack foreign troops, ours included. Whoops!

Let's get the reason for being there straight. It's the oil, stupid. Otherwise we'd have overrun Zimbabwe by now (to hell with 'let Africa sort out its own problems') to depose Mugabe and reinstate ownership of the farms which now lie rotten and fallow, no longer able to feed not just its own population (under - I know it's so not popular to say it - white Zimbabwean supervision) but export tonnes of meat and vegetables annually. If it had been worthwhile in the long run for us to do so, we'd have done it. But it isn't, so we haven't.

Back to Islamic Centre - it's thrown up some very interesting reactions in the US and outside, hasn't it? I think Ground Zero is now so entrenched in American history that it will take many decades, maybe even a century or two, before it's faded enough to be viewed as anything other than a Muslim atrocity. But we mustn't forget that the USA has never had anything like this happen to it via a foreign or outside source. It's had a civil war, which was - obviously - entirely internal. It's had a couple of mad white Americans, Tim McVey and the Unabomber, cause brief mayhem. But with the exception of the prior bombing attempt at the same venue, which wasn't very successful, this is the first time the country has borne a malign foreign-based, foreign-instigated attack. It just isn't used to being kicked on its own soil by outsiders. We British, on the other hand, have a glorious lineage of being invaded by the Nords, the Romans, the French, bombardment beyond belief by the Nazis, and latterly the influence of millions of foreign language students. The USA hasn't - quite the opposite. It's so used to barging into most conflicts or creating entirely unnecessary ones of its own that it was no doubt a huge shock to its system when a tiny handful of dedicated (also read fanatical, nutty, or brave, according to taste) dissidents could cause such a monster physical and psychological blow within its rather smug confines. Not just in its major city, but at the - gasp! - Pentagon, from which its many military adventures flow. Not only a slap, but a deeply symbolic slap.

It would be nice to think that Americans could divorce the idea of Islam = worldwide terror, but we're talking about what is still a remarkably ill-informed country when it comes to knowing how the rest of the world really lives. When most Americans tour, they like to know they'll stay in American-owned hotels, eat American-style food, and travel with their own kind. They're not much given - bar people like Ernest Hemingway - to exploring the deeper recesses of foreign life. So we can't be too surprised that they've immediately equated an Islamic centre - regardless of whether it's two blocks or two miles from Ground Zero - with Muslim terrorism.

I think it'd be just fine to have the centre in New York, but not in Manhattan. America is still too raw from the attack, and too ignorant of Islam, to accept that graciously. I think it'd be better for the centre, too, since I can see it as a target for - at the least - mild vandalism, but also, in true American style, for the gun-toting loon who will one day go bursting in, 'avenging' the fallen of 9/11. Which isn't likely to do much for inter-faith relationships.
 
Let's get the reason for being there straight. It's the oil, stupid

Krizon. Weve been through this before

There is no oil in Afganistan. The surrounding countries produce a tiny fraction of the worlds oil. They motsly produce gas, which the US doesnt require. They are exporting this without the pipeline already and even then, the taleban apparently were in talks to build the self same before 9/11

By any cost benefit analysis, waging a war in a notoriously difficult country for 10 years in return for a pipeline which is at best desirable is a complete nonsense
 
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