Alan Lee

[Guest_]

Does every single article on Irish racing need to be so bloody doom and gloom. So if Punchestown is a huge success is that an indicator of Irish troubles behind us? Of course not...article after article (in truth they could all be one as they are so repetitive) his basis is far too simplistic and far too generalised. I would swear last years article on Punchestown was virtually word for word the same...

Alan Lee, Racing Correspondent






div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited {color:#06c;} British racing continues to wrestle with issues of funding and modernisation but its problems are trifling compared to those in Ireland. There, a sport blessed for so long by government subsidies and a soaring economy is in crisis. It makes the Punchestown Festival, which starts today, a critical litmus test.
These five days evolved into a microcosm of the nation’s mood. A once bucolic setting in Co Kildare is transformed by corporate shindigs and public enthusiasm into a week-long celebration of one of Ireland’s most buoyant industries.
But that was in the days of the Celtic Tiger, when everyone had money to spend on horses and gambling. Right now, with central funding decimated, native optimism is being submerged beneath a welter of depressing trends.
The belt-tightening at Horse Racing Ireland (HRI) has been of eye-watering intensity. More than 2,000 jobs have been lost and Brian Kavanagh, the HRI chief executive, admits the industry is under “serious pressure”. Prize money is in freefall and attendances and betting turnover at the top meetings are diminished.

Internal agitation has been growing but it took angry words from an unlikely source to bring it to public attention. John Oxx is widely known as a skilled trainer and consummate gentleman with a sound, unflappable temperament, so his vitriolic response to provocative words from an Irish bookmaker reveals the depth of divisions suddenly prevalent.
Patrick Kennedy, chief executive of Paddy Power, stated at a conference with government senators: “Irish breeding is world class but its racing is not.” Oxx, who was present representing the trainers, used an open letter to describe Kennedy’s comments as “appalling”, “arrogant”, “insulting and inaccurate”.
Such powerful emotions from a mild man seemed akin to your amiable village vicar deserting the pulpit and mounting a soapbox on the green to declaim against the evils of modern society. And it showed how Irish racing is beginning to tear itself apart in a manner wearily familiar to many in this country.
Oxx, of course, had specific reason for indignation. Only last summer, his training of Sea The Stars was as fine an advertisement for his profession as can be imagined. The second successive Irish-trained winner of the Epsom Derby was a pretty effective ambassador for his country, too.
Irish jump racing, though, has not been seen to such good effect. Indeed, Big Zeb’s victory in the Queen Mother Champion Chase last month is the only Irish success in the four principal Cheltenham races in the past three years. He might have given his countrymen something to savour at Punchestown but his absence, decreed by trainer Colm Murphy for fear of over-racing, means the Boylesports.com Champion Chase today is dominated by two British raiders, Twist Magic and Kalahari King.
War Of Attrition was the last Irish-trained winner of the Gold Cup, in 2006. Partly due to injury, he never reached such heights again and will be retired after a final run in the Guinness Gold Cup tomorrow. The favourite, though, will be Denman, a Gold Cup winner sold to race in England out of Irish point-to-pointing — just like Best Mate and Imperial Commander.
There is, as Mr Kennedy rightly said, no questioning the quality of Irish breeding and selling. But the ability of its home-trained jumps horses to compete at the highest level will be as much a cause for concern at Punchestown this week as falling crowds and betting revenue.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

As an aside, if you consider Patrick Kennedy's comments to refer to Irish racing - that which takes place on Irish soil - rather than the exploits of its horses, trainers and jockeys, domestically and abroad, does he not have a point?

As Timeform's Irish review pointed out, after acknowledging all that was good about Sea The Stars, such as his training, his riding and his potential impact on Irish breeding: "...it should also be noted that only one of Sea The Stars's six races in his classic season took place on home soil. Despite the affluence of Irish racing, at least until recently, and the fact that many of the best horses in the world are trained there, there are only a few events in the calendar that have much chance of attracting horses of Sea The Stars's calibre..."

I fail to see why Oxx felt justified in using such opprobrium in this instance.

 

[Grey]

According to John Oxx's letter to the Irish Field Mr Kennedy had a lot more to say than that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey
There's a very strong letter in the Irish Field today from John Oxx in which he denounces the "appalling" attitude of Paddy Power CEO Patrick Kennedy, and of the betting industry in general, at a meeting during the week of the parliamentary committee with responsibility for horse racing. Here are some extracts:

"What (Kennedy) had to say, and his arrogant demeanour throughout, was of great concern to me and should be to everybody involved in the racing and breeding industries...

Mr Kennedy stated that Irish racing was not world class, he advocated a significant (further) reduction in prize money and he described racing's relationship with the betting industry as parasitical... Mr Kennedy said that Paddy Power did not need Irish racing, a position which I find remarkable. Indeed, he gave the impression that he would not care if Irish racing ceased or closed down...

Mr Kennedy presented a range of figures and reasons to counter the suggestion that bookmakers should pay more tax, but the one figure which I cannot understand is how in 2001, when betting in Ireland was 1.3bn euro, the tax paid was 68m, but now that betting has increased to approximately 4.5bn, the tax has fallen to 31m."

 

[Guest_]

Sea The Stars could have ran in the Irish Guineas, Irish Derby (indeed was the intention) and ran in the Irish Champion Stakes (which turned out to be his highest rating above his British and French exploits).

I don't think, regardless of how much money is thrown at races, more Group 1s based in Ireland can be pulled from out of the sky and I personally think the Irish, British and French calenders compliment each other pretty well (which is the reason why I think the need for an end of season "Arc day" in the UK is all wrong) from the summer onwards.

As Timeform's Irish review pointed out, after acknowledging all that was good about Sea The Stars, such as his training, his riding and his potential impact on Irish breeding: "...it should also be noted that only one of Sea The Stars's six races in his classic season took place on home soil. Despite the affluence of Irish racing, at least until recently, and the fact that many of the best horses in the world are trained there, there are only a few events in the calendar that have much chance of attracting horses of Sea The Stars's calibre..."

I fail to see why Oxx felt justified in using such opprobrium in this instance.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

I would find a bookmaker describing racing's relationships with bookmaking as "parasitical" pretty offensive, too. That much was not apparent from Alan Lee's article.

Sea The Stars could have run in those races but did not. Rip Van Winkle, the second-highest rated horse in Ireland (and in Timeform's annual), did not race in Ireland at all. They are not unique over the years.

If Irish racing - rather than its horses, trainers and jockeys - is world class it arguably should be staging more world-class races, contested by, and won by, its own horses.

 

[Grey]

"...it should also be noted that only one of Sea The Stars's six races in his classic season took place on home soil. Despite the affluence of Irish racing, at least until recently, and the fact that many of the best horses in the world are trained there, there are only a few events in the calendar that have much chance of attracting horses of Sea The Stars's calibre..."

Why should it be surprising that the best horse in decades would race in England and France as well as Ireland? What is Timeform's point?

 

[trackside528]

If Irish racing - rather than its horses, trainers and jockeys - is world class it arguably should be staging more world-class races, contested by, and won by, its own horses.

Fair point. Outside of the Classics, the only Irish races to truly attract top-class fields are the Irish Champion and Phoenix/National for 2yo's and, to a lesser extent, the Pretty Polly and Matron for mares.

There is surely a disparity between the number of Group 1's and the overall quality of racing of racing between Ireland and France, particularly for 3yo's with the recent upgrade of the Grand Prix De Paris as well as the Jockey Club and the Prix Jean Prat complementing the Poulains. I just can't see where another Group 1 fits into the European calendar at any distance really.

It all works quite nicely as it is as far as I can see, yet it does leave Ireland in a rather disadvantaged position in terms of the Group 1 calendar.

 

[Sheikh]

The racing calendar is built on tradition and prestige not on £ & €. Creating a race/s to try and entice the top horses to Ireland to race would not work simply as breeders want the same black type races after their stallions name that they have always wanted. Part of racings attraction is the way for the most part it transcends political borders and jingoism in search and appreciation of the best horse. The top horses go where ever the top races have always been held and in these parts that's usually the UK. The nationality of the winner is incidental as most appreciate the ability of the winner regardless of it's nationality or in racings case, usually it's multi nationality. Any amount of prize money will not change the pattern as it exists. It's the reason the Arabs are based in the UK trying to win the big races rather than at home running races worth a gazillion dollars all year.

Thought that extract from Timeform was shallow and pathetic.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

Why should it be surprising that the best horse in decades would race in England and France as well as Ireland? What is Timeform's point?

They did not suggest it was "surprising": you did.

It is not surprising, unfortunately. But it is noteworthy that, for instance, Ireland has produced more horses rated >130 in the last five years than any other country in the world, but those nine Irish-trained horses ran on home soil only 23% of the time in the years in which they got their >130 ratings, whereas French-trained horses (five qualifiers) ran domestically 83% of the time, US-trained horses (eight qualifiers) raced at home 91% of the time and UK-trained horses (five qualifiers) raced at home 63% of the time.

The 29 qualifiers in all ran 176 times, only 16 of those races took place in Ireland (France 40; USA 51; UK 50).

Only Dylan Thomas (ran 3 times in Ireland from 10 runs in 2007), Fame And Glory (ran 4 times in Ireland from 7 runs in 2009) and New Approach (ran twice in Ireland from 6 runs in 2008) of Irish-trained top-notchers ran more than once in the country in which they were trained. As mentioned already, Rip Van Winkle did not run at all in Ireland in 2009.

Irish horses are world class at their best, but in order to prove that point they almost always have to race abroad much more often than at home due to lack of domestic opportunity. That is not the case in the other major racing nations.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

Creating a race/s to try and entice the top horses to Ireland to race would not work simply as breeders want the same black type races after their stallions name that they have always wanted.

So, are you saying in effect that Irish racing - as distinct from its horses, trainers and jockeys - is not world class, and that we should not expect that to change?

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

Thought that extract from Timeform was shallow and pathetic.

It is factual. Some people apparently find facts shallow and pathetic.

 

[Aragorn]

So we shut down the breeding ground for these horses? The tracks where they learn their trade and people work day in day out to produce the best bloodstock and racehorses in the world? Then what happens?

What I will say is, i've never been to the Curragh, but I don't think i've seen a more depressing looking place from the pictures. It needs a revamp if it is the home of the Irish Classics. Leopardstown always looks a picture.

 

[Sheikh]

So, are you saying in effect that Irish racing - as distinct from its horses, trainers and jockeys - is not world class, and that we should not expect that to change?

I'm saying racing has no borders and the fact the best horses are currently bred and trained In Ireland does not and will not change the heritage of the Sport.It's the angle of the Time form piece that I dislike, it does not grasp that.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

It was simply pointing out that there is a disparity between Ireland's success on the international stage and the number of world-class races it stages itself.

That seems to be an incontrovertible fact, and is surely pertinent to any discussion of Irish racing's status.

While it may be bad news for racegoers in Ireland - who get to see their top horses less often than racegoers in other major racing countries - it reflects well on the efforts of Irish trainers if anything.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

It's the angle of the Time form piece that I dislike, it does not grasp that.

Quite how you can infer that from what was written is beyond me.

 

[Grey]

Imagine for a moment we were having this discussion about, say Yorkshire, and you will start to get a sense of how weird your analysis sounds to me. ("Yorkshire-trained horses of world class ran on home soil only 23% of the time..."). Why would you find it remarkable or expect it to be different?

For racing purposes Ireland is very closely tied in with the UK and in effect the big dates in the UK calendar form part of the Irish calendar as well. It doesn't seem sane or relevant to start comparing it with the US, France or the UK concerning questions of scale.

Longchamp stages 15 Gr1 races per season, the Curragh 10, Ascot and Newmarket 9 each.

Irish racegoers can get to Newmarket and Ascot as easily (volcanoes permitting), and probably as cheaply, as anybody from most parts of England, Scotland or Wales, and they have the same access to UK media as British punters. Add to that the quality racing on their own doorstep and they're doing rather well for an island whose entire population is less than London or Paris.

 

[Harbinger]

1.16% of Irish flat races last year were Group 1s, compared to 0.51% of British races.

There was one Group 1 race for every 1079 runners in Irish flat races last year, compared to every 1936 runners in British flat races.

There was one Group 1 race for every 57000 spectators at fixtures involving flat races in Ireland last year, compared to one Group 1 race for every 115000 British flat-fixture spectator.

From this, it seems to me that Ireland has at least its fair share of Group 1 races in the context of the sport as a whole.

However, there are some glaring gaps in who those races cater for. For example, there are no Group 1 sprints and there are no inter-generational Group 1s over a mile for males or over 1m4f for either sex. Even the 2yos don't have a Group 1 over a mile (get the Beresford upgraded!).

 

[chroniclandlord]

However, there are some glaring gaps in who those races cater for. For example, there are no Group 1 sprints and there are no inter-generational Group 1s over a mile for males or over 1m4f for either sex. Even the 2yos don't have a Group 1 over a mile (get the Beresford upgraded!).

I'd agree about the gaps especially as there isn't an intergenerational Group 2 over a mile or 1m4f for males, never mind a Group 1.

On the other hand the Royal Whip Stakes (1m2f Group 2) doesn't always attract a great field.

If SNA does well this season, there might be a good case for upgrading the Beresford, given how well the 2008 winner did.

 

[J Alfred Prufrock]

Imagine for a moment we were having this discussion about, say Yorkshire, and you will start to get a sense of how weird your analysis sounds to me.

If Yorkshire funded and ran its own racing, and took umbrage at people suggesting its racing was or was not of a given quality when world-class horses trained in the county seldom ran at home, then I think that would be a reasonable comparison. Instead, it just seems weird in return.

Ireland has - demonstrably - had a significant proportion of world-class horses in recent years. Those horses have run abroad much more often than at home once they have proved themselves of a certain calibre.

Whether the fact that world-class horses seldom run in Ireland, despite many of them being trained in Ireland, is good, bad or indifferent is for people to judge.

But it is a fact. And it is surely a fact that is pertinent to consideration of the respects in which Irish racing is "world class" and to any consideration of Irish racing's well-being.

 

[Harbinger]

I'd agree about the gaps especially as there isn't an intergenerational Group 2 over a mile or 1m4f for males, never mind a Group 1.

Indeed. The pattern is supposed to be something of a pyramid system, yet there's twice as many Group 1s as Group 2s in Ireland. Tons of Group 3s though!

 

[krizon]

So it comes down to this (bearing in mind that to be 'world class' one does, presumably, have to take on the world to prove that accolade?): Irish racehorses are world-class performers at home and abroad. Irish racing is not at a 'world class' standard since it fails to attract runners from outside of the Republic, at least not at any level significant to measure its international status. The two are quite different, aren't they? Top-class Irish-breds can hack it pretty much anywhere you put them. Irish racing, as in its physical courses and prize monies, however attractive or not, fail to get international support.

But 'world class' is different to simply being patronised by overseas runners. The UK's courses enjoy a steady stream of overseas equine visitors from Japan, Dubai, South Africa, Italy, France, Germany, Poland and other countries. But if they were all Class 4, that would hardly make British racing world class, per se.

It's when you attract the Rest of the World's top runners regularly to your country that your racing is first-class, regardless of the state of your lavatories or the price of your beer.

The water is a bit muddy with thoughts of 'world class' horses, 'world class' racing, and 'world class' racecourses. They should all fit neatly together, but we know they don't always do that. Royal Ascot was world class, but in the couple of years you couldn't actually see the world class runners, it failed dreadfully to live up to that accolade.

I can't see how any country's racing is world class until it attracts top overseas competitors on a regular basis, a little United Nations of excellent equine athletes. But that's quite different to producing world class horses, which there can be no doubt that Ireland does. Along with South Africa, Germany, Italy... you get the picture.

 

[Irish Stamp]

Fair point. Outside of the Classics, the only Irish races to truly attract top-class fields are the Irish Champion and Phoenix/National for 2yo's and, to a lesser extent, the Pretty Polly and Matron for mares.

There is surely a disparity between the number of Group 1's and the overall quality of racing of racing between Ireland and France, particularly for 3yo's with the recent upgrade of the Grand Prix De Paris as well as the Jockey Club and the Prix Jean Prat complementing the Poulains. I just can't see where another Group 1 fits into the European calendar at any distance really.

It all works quite nicely as it is as far as I can see, yet it does leave Ireland in a rather disadvantaged position in terms of the Group 1 calendar.

There's 5 Group 1's at Deauville alone in August - with the Prix Morny, Prix Maurice De Gheest, Prix Jacques Marois being supported by the two fillies race - the 8f race and the 10f and newly introduced Prix Jean-Romanet. We seem to be going the way of the US in terms of having plenty of fillies only races throughout the year.

With the 10f Italian race at the start of November (Premio Roma?) surely there's a case for staging a 10f fillies Group 1 in Ireland on Irish Guineas weekend or possibly even earlier. Any argument of a clash with the Tatts Gold Cup doesn't wash with me since the International and Jean-Romanet are practically the same time anyway.

 

[Irish Stamp]

So it comes down to this (bearing in mind that to be 'world class' one does, presumably, have to take on the world to prove that accolade?): Irish racehorses are world-class performers at home and abroad. Irish racing is not at a 'world class' standard since it fails to attract runners from outside of the Republic, at least not at any level significant to measure its international status. The two are quite different, aren't they? Top-class Irish-breds can hack it pretty much anywhere you put them. Irish racing, as in its physical courses and prize monies, however attractive or not, fail to get international support.

But 'world class' is different to simply being patronised by overseas runners. The UK's courses enjoy a steady stream of overseas equine visitors from Japan, Dubai, South Africa, Italy, France, Germany, Poland and other countries. But if they were all Class 4, that would hardly make British racing world class, per se.

It's when you attract the Rest of the World's top runners regularly to your country that your racing is first-class, regardless of the state of your lavatories or the price of your beer.

The water is a bit muddy with thoughts of 'world class' horses, 'world class' racing, and 'world class' racecourses. They should all fit neatly together, but we know they don't always do that. Royal Ascot was world class, but in the couple of years you couldn't actually see the world class runners, it failed dreadfully to live up to that accolade.

I can't see how any country's racing is world class until it attracts top overseas competitors on a regular basis, a little United Nations of excellent equine athletes. But that's quite different to producing world class horses, which there can be no doubt that Ireland does. Along with South Africa, Germany, Italy... you get the picture.

By those measurements the only truly world class courses in Europe are Longchamp (with regular Japanese visitors and the odd Australian) and Ascot (Miss Andretti, Takeover Target, Sacred Kingdom etc. and then the US horses who've been or will be coming in Morluc and Kinsale King).

 

[Harbinger]

But it is noteworthy that, for instance, Ireland has produced more horses rated >130 in the last five years than any other country in the world, but those nine Irish-trained horses ran on home soil only 23% of the time in the years in which they got their >130 ratings, whereas French-trained horses (five qualifiers) ran domestically 83% of the time, US-trained horses (eight qualifiers) raced at home 91% of the time and UK-trained horses (five qualifiers) raced at home 63% of the time.

I'm going to guess that all 9 Irish horses were colts who ran between a mile and a mile and a half and for whom, once their classic campaign is over, there are exactly two Group 1 opportunities in Ireland, both over 10f - the early season Tattersalls Gold Cup (if they're kept in training at 4), and the Irish Champion Stakes.

I'm also going to guess that 6 of those 9 ran in the Irish Champion, and that all three of them who had an opportunity to run in the Tattersalls Gold Cup did so.

 

[Grey]

But it is a fact. And it is surely a fact that is pertinent to consideration of the respects in which Irish racing is "world class" and to any consideration of Irish racing's well-being.

Prufrock, would you say that because U2, Van Morrison, and all other well known Irish musicians perform abroad far more often than they do in Ireland it somehow brings into question the state of Irish music? Most people would say the opposite.

Gareth and landlord, there is no doubt that the Irish pattern when taken in isolation is lop-sided and only makes sense when looked at in conjunction with the UK pattern.

Irish racing at the top level forms a significant part of a larger entity.