Alan Lee

Grey said:
Gareth and landlord, there is no doubt that the Irish pattern when taken in isolation is lop-sided and only makes sense when looked at in conjunction with the UK pattern.

Irish racing at the top level forms a significant part of a larger entity.
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Quite, indeed with the whole European pattern being centrally controlled, it's exceedingly unlikely the situation will change. Looking at Europe as a whole, is there any demand for another all-age Group 1 over a mile to go with the Sussex, Marois, Moulin and QEII in the second half of the season? Or a 1m4f Group 1 race between the King George and Arc, with all the big 10f races (Juddmonte, Irish Champion), fillies 12f races (Yorkshire Oaks, Vermeille) and established 12f Arc trials (Niel, Foy) already there, not to mention the various Legers and Leger trials?

Oh, and the three (count 'em!) 12f Group 1s held in Germany every autumn.
 
Prufrock, would you say that because U2, Van Morrison, and all other well known Irish musicians perform abroad far more often than they do in Ireland it somehow brings into question the state of Irish music? Most people would say the opposite.
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Leaving aside the fact that I like neither of those acts, I would suggest that the health of Irish music should also be judged by the quality of music that takes place in Ireland. However, music is not a particularly good analogy, as Irish (or any other) music can, and does, travel round the globe at the click of a button.
 
Irish racing at the top level forms a significant part of a larger entity.
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At the world-class level, Irish horses do. Racing in Ireland does not. Unless you choose to be very permissive in your definition of "significant".

It should not be necessary for me to point this out, but I am a fan of Irish racing and wish to see it prosper.

I think "prospering" would ideally include Irish racegoers being able to see world-class Irish-trained horses performing in the flesh on Irish racecourses on a regular basis, not having to go to York or Ascot or wherever to do so.

There is a disparity between the status of Irish horses on the world stage and the status of racing in Ireland itself. Not a huge one, but a disparity all the same.

As I said before, it is up to the individual concerned to judge whether that is a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing thing. But it is futile to pretend that the situation is not as it is.
 
However, music is not a particularly good analogy, as Irish (or any other) music can, and does, travel round the globe at the click of a button.
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Music travels round the globe at the click of a button, but not the performers. In the same way, TV pictures of racing also travel round the globe at the click of a button, but not the horses, so I think it's a fair analogy.

I would suggest that the health of Irish music should also be judged by the quality of music that takes place in Ireland
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I would agree, and I also agree that the health of Irish racing should be judged by the quality of racing that takes place in Ireland as well as the quality of its performers. Gareth has given some stats showing that there are plenty of Group races in Ireland for its size, and as you know the standard of these races is determined by an international committee applying fixed criteria.

Krizon, we don't get many Polish or Australian runners, it is true, and the French have stopped sending runners anywhere until the Arc is out of the way, but UK stables are always eyeing up opportunities in Ireland. If they fancy their chances they turn up, and if they don't they stay away. The connection between racing in the two countries works both ways.
 
I would agree, and I also agree that the health of Irish racing should be judged by the quality of racing that takes place in Ireland as well as the quality of its performers. Gareth has given some stats showing that there are plenty of Group races in Ireland for its size, and as you know the standard of these races is determined by an international committee applying fixed criteria.
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I am glad we agree on something!

It does not remotely change the fact that world-class Irish-trained horses - of which there have been many - tend to be raced outside Ireland once they have shown they are world-class. The number of Group races that take place in Ireland does not change that fact.

It seems to me that some of the posters on here imagine that I am "having a go" at Irish racing. I am not. I am simply observing a phenomenon which surely has to be important where Irish racing's status and health is being discussed.
 
J Alfred Prufrock said:
It seems to me that some of the posters on here imagine that I am "having a go" at Irish racing. I am not. I am simply observing a phenomenon which surely has to be important where Irish racing's status and health is being discussed.
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I don't think many/any think that - pretty reasonable debate.

I personally think Ireland does not need any more Group 1s given the size and pool of horses here. I suppose there are the odd possible exceptions but in general the Irish Champion is enough considering the international opportunities else where. Not something to encourage either - would lead to the dilution of the Group 1's here and in the UK.
 
So let's start a campaign to have the number of Group 1 races in Ireland, Great Britain and France equalised*, in terms of numbers and conditions so as to fairly represent where the population of world class horses exist in Europe.

*based on the last 5 years of World Thoroughbred Rankings, European-trained horses rated 125 or greater have been trained in:

France: 12
Ireland: 11
Great Britain: 10
 
By the way - there is more racing than just the flat in Ireland...our jumpers are more than happy to stay at home!
 
It seems to me that some of the posters on here imagine that I am "having a go" at Irish racing. I am not. I am simply observing a phenomenon which surely has to be important where Irish racing's status and health is being discussed.
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I don't think you're "having a go" either, I just think the fact you're highlighting is rather unremarkable and I don't see its importance.

As long as Ireland is staging a fair share of top class events, and it is, I don't see the problem. The Irish Derby and the Irish Champion Stakes are in the top 10 of races staged in Europe, its other 3yo classics are taken seriously, and its 2yo racing is as good as there is anywhere. It's simply too small a country to stage a full range of world class events but it has its share.

The top Irish performers in any field, be it music, sport, medicine or engineering have always had to consider moving for a time to a larger pond in order to gain experience and/or recognition. In racing the difference is that Irish racing is already part of that larger pond.
 
The top Irish performers in any field, be it music, sport, medicine or engineering have always had to consider moving for a time to a larger pond in order to gain experience and/or recognition.
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It would be perfectly reasonable to suggest that this is because the standing of their profession or calling - as opposed to some of the practitioners - was not truly world-class in their native country in the first place.
 
It would be perfectly reasonable to suggest that this is because the standing of their profession or calling - as opposed to some of the practitioners - was not truly world-class in their native country in the first place.
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You would be right that if there was no exchange with the rest of the world things would quickly stagnate in a small pond. Fortunately that is not the case.
 
Grey, yes, of course you get some British runners coming over to have a go at the bigger prizes, but that's hardly 'world', is it? I'm honestly not sure, reading through all the posts, whether we're agreeing on what constitutes a world anything. It sounds a bit like the World Baseball Championships held in the USA, where no-one but Americans compete! The World Series this or that should, surely, contain the best reps from an assortment of countries - whether it's beach volleyball or Flat racing? But the World Series in racing has been pooh-poohed as gimmicky, so that doesn't seem to be much use to the debate!

If Irish racing is world class, then it must attract more than just a few competitors from the UK. But that, per se, wouldn't mean 'world class' in terms of 'highest quality'. I think people talking about 'world class' often confuse that with 'top class'. Now, there's no doubt there's top-class racing and top-class horses in Ireland. For all I know, there are top-class courses, too (certainly Punchestown looks the biz). And there are very high quality Irish-bred horses racing outside the Republic.

I'm beginning to think that 'world class' is a myth, no matter what it's about!
 
I still don't think Racing can be judged from one Country to the next. In the context of racing I would say European racing is World Class.

If people want to judge it from one Country in Europe to the next I'd say that on the race course Irish maiden races are World Class.
 
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Rather read Alan Lee on the state of irish racing than some droning cloying drivel from Alistair Down for instance. I thought it was a fair enough article.
 
Krizon, There is no equivalent in Europe to the type of event you're describing where runners turn up from all corners of the globe. Royal Ascot, to their credit, are starting to succeed in that regard with their sprint races and the Arc attracts the occasional runner from exotic places but generally speaking racing has not yet become globalised.

I have been taking the term 'world class' to mean a standard (of racing) on a par with the best anywhere else in the world.

How to assess that standard? I would say by looking at how many pattern races are on offer in relation to the horse population and the level of performance required to win them. I would also take into account the record of horses from that jurisdiction when they go to run in big races elsewhere. Below the elite level I would also take into account the standard generally required to win maiden and conditions races.
 
I'd like to see plenty of spiky articles, too, from anyone. Nobody seems to act as racing's terrier and take some issue that's patently wrong, and shake it to bits. There's far too much sycophancy - hell's teeth, it's like media attitudes towards the Royal family in the 1950s!

Grey, that's exactly what I mean by defining 'world' in this context. There aren't enough 'world' competitors turning up anywhere, frequently enough, to seem to warrant that term. It's not like international athletics, let alone the Olympics, where the winners really are 'world' class, because they've seen off the competition from dozens of different countries.
 
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This year's Punchestown Festival is proving to be a resounding success, with Friday's attendance bettering last year's corresponding total.

This year's Friday's attendance was 28,664, which is 72 more people than attended last year. Taking into account the difficulties experienced by travellers from overseas, including America, the Festival organisers have done very well
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72 more than 2009 - that's a laugh! A few thousand would've been significant. It doesn't make any sense to talk about travel restrictions - without the restrictions in 2009, there were just 72 people less, that's all. Be interesting to know what their figures were for 2007, before the financial meltdown started in earnest.
 
The problem with the initial article is that the last paragraph is slightly removed from the debate raised in the early part of it. I firmly believe there's enough people in Ireland now who made silly money out of the boomtime and managed to avoid disaster - that will continue to keep horses in training in Ireland. Similarly, the boom time has highlighted the success of Irish trainers which means that a lot of British and other businessman have horses trained in Ireland. For example, the bloke who owns Mikael D'Hagenuet, Arvika Ligionaire, Pomme Tiepy and others is a London businessman. The Imperial Commander syndicate have a horse with Willie Mullins [Definitive Edge] and there are other examples of this.

And then you have the likes of JP and the expanding O'Leary base who are keeping plenty of good horses in Ireland.

Is Irish racing any healthier this week because Hurricane Fly looked so good, because Kalahiri King was beaten AGAIN by Forpady [amongst others, not least the winner!] ....that Quevega was thrillingly impressive. No, it doesn't matter a jot. We'll never ever go back to the days of one Irirsh winner at Cheltenham like the 1980's - that just won't happen. What will happen is that a lot more middle ranking owners etc can't afford to keep horses anymore. And, yes, prizemoney will go down. There are issues there. But those bigger issues can't be linked to Irish results in the big races at Cheltenham. The two novice chases were won this year by Irish horses - just like they were in 2009, in fact. So there's still a steady supply of Grade 1 horses. So the link in the initial article is extremely tenuous.
 
Much maligned as his operation is, you would have to think that all those McManus horses running in moderate handicap hurdles must surely be a pretty vital cog in the industry at the moment for a pretty significant number of trainers.

Mullins won't be short of owners anytime soon but it's the 'boom' trainers that are the hardest hit. The two that come to mind as having very quiet seasons are Eoin Griffin and Dusty Sheehy.
 
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