Desperate Dan
Senior Jockey
Very shabby for all concerned. Complete disregard for the image of the sport.
AP McCoy The Legend
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
EC1
On a break
but what expectation though?....they expected it to have lbs in hand..coz on paper it was 20/1 shot with **** form over sticks...so only the stable have made it the price it was
if you are saying 5/4 shots in general lose more than win..then yes you are correct of course..but each one has to be assessed before they run don't they?
we are now talking after the race..which is a bit different..and i still would think this type is a poor 5/4 shot given similar circumstances in future...obviously now it would have been a good 1/200 shot..because it won
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
When you think about it it's no different than Sir Mark Prescott running stayers over 6 furlong 3 times getting a mark the running and winning with him over 1m6f.
People like Jim Best and SMP don't make the rules and if they run a horse on ground or a trip doesn't suit they are not breaking the rules.
Jim Best horse was off for along time and no doubt she did improve during that time.
I actually watched her previous race at Towcester and there's no way she was stopped that any Steward could spot.
Her Jockey never stopped riding her at any stage but the oldest trick in the book is to leave a horse short of a gallop and stay up with the leaders for as long as you can bet your life the horse will blow up. When the horse was clearly beaten there was a bit of play acting going on in the saddle but only to the extent he kept after her when it was obvious she had no chance. He even gave her a couple of backhanders late on but if she had a fly on her backside you can bet it survived the blow.
One thing that was obvious was the way she travelled you'd have to say she showed a lot more ability than the final placings would suggest but looking at her flat form would tell you the same thing.
IMO Best has done an excellent job of making sure when the day came they had absolutely nothing they could put their finger on to accuse him of cheating.
You say it wasn't shrewd, you can bet your life it was. That said yes the jockey change and the withdrawal were blatant but as I said earlier he's got that covered too.
There were plenty of horses taken out today and if he decides he doesn't want to run a horse on that kind of ground in fear she might get jarred up there's nothing the stewards can say.
There's no rule that says he can't take advantage of the bookies either if they are stupid enough to lay the odds that's their problem.
You say it's bad for racing but I would disagree with that completely. People like Dermot Browne are bad for racing but characters like Best, the late Jimmy Fitzgerald, Mick Easterby Jonjo's and Martin Pipe etc who land touches draw hundreds if not thousands into racing.
Punters become owners and dream about landing a touch. After all at the end of the day racing is about gambling.
When it became obvious Martin Pipe was puling of huge gambles there was a que a mile long to put a horse with him and he built his empire on that. He and Chester Barnes were never out of the news. It's people like him who attract people into racing not chase them away.
Racing without trainers landing touches would be like watching a War movie with no fighting........watchable perhaps but a lot less exciting for sure
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SlimChance
Guest
So as I said on another McCoy worshipping thread the man sold his soul to land touches for JP around the gaffs. That's how he'll be remembered.
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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It's not how he'll be remembered, but he would have done himself a favour if he'd cut loose from that arrangment a few years back.
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granger
Senior Jockey
All he wants is winners. He won't be for changing
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SlimChance
Guest
At what cost.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
What's seedy about landing a touch?
JP McManus for example has pulled off many a stroke but he's one of the most respected characters ever to set foot on a racecourse who has raised million for school kids ad other charities. Should he be thrown out of racing because he likes beating the bookies.
When Don't Push It won the National the media were writing stories hinting about him winning millions which was complete nonsense but it caught peoples attention and without a doubt thousands thought "I would love to do that"
The thrill of landing a touch and seeing others do so is one of the biggest draws in racing.
Jim Best is shrewd he works within the rules and takes great care not to break them. His style is an open book........look at the similarity between yesterday,s winner and Planetoid. Planetoid was hitting more hurdles than he was missing and had one terrible fall. Best rested him and schooled him until his jumping showed marked improvement. The horse was showing him more at home so he decides to go for a touch........He pulls it off and the stewards refer it to the BHA......for what? Best explained he'd improved for the rest they had schooled the backside off the horse and he was on his favoured ground running in a handicap for the first time off a mrk the handicapper gave him......The BHA took no action and this will be exactly the same.
Jim Best has never been justifuly found guilty of stopping horses the only thing he's guilty of is improving moderate horses and backing them with hard cash when he thinks he's got them right.
There was the Northern Lad case but subsequent events have shown how wrong the Stewards got that one. The horse was never the subject of a gamble and ran like a cow for 2 years before finding any kind of form. Even when he did he was beaten twice into 2nd then won a moderate race running perely on merit. Having watched the race they were a mile off the mark the horse was never stopped in amillion yeras. The way I look at it the stewards owe him 3 grand plus interest
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
What a crock of shyte Slim. Over 4 thousand winners, the hardest working jockey in the world, noted for being a perfect gentleman to everyone and praised for helping young up and coming jockeys, won the National, the Gold Cup, the Champion Hurdle. The QMCC and the King George and won 19 NH Championship and 20 Lester Awards which is more than any one in racing history.
And you think he'll be remembered for riding moderate horses round gaff tracks.....dream on!!!!!!
Of course he's loyal to JP but why wouldn't he be. JP's a saint among men and their successful partnership provides thousands of people in racing with a job.
Does it really need saying that anyone betting in any sport would want to know that all the participants are open and trying their best? Ie the premiership?
racing is viewed as being bent. Fairly or not. "Touches" are viewed as bent. Doesn't matte whether we think it's foreseeable or whether jp gives money to kids. We don't matter. It's new punters and fringe punters who do. And they don't want to know. The barney Curley incident was a prime example. It chips away.
Dont you think that any products image is it's biggest selling point?
How anyone think that "having to be on the inside" is a draw to the game is beyond me
racing is viewed as being bent. Fairly or not. "Touches" are viewed as bent. Doesn't matte whether we think it's foreseeable or whether jp gives money to kids. We don't matter. It's new punters and fringe punters who do. And they don't want to know. The barney Curley incident was a prime example. It chips away.
Dont you think that any products image is it's biggest selling point?
How anyone think that "having to be on the inside" is a draw to the game is beyond me
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SlimChance
Guest
Tanlic. JP gets away with everything because of the money he puts into racing but he has stopped more horses than any owner in the history of racing.
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Oh come on Slim.... How much do arabs put into racing and it never stopped the BHA pulling one of theirs over the coals.
If I have said it once I've said it a hundred times. The secret is not stopping horses it's having one good enough to stop and you don't get many of them in a bag of coal.
There's no way JP or Frank Berry calls Jonjo up or any other trainer to stop a horse who is fit and well enough to win. Not in this day and age because you simply wouldn't get away with it. BY that I am not just talking about Stewards but bookies and pundits who go racing every day.
The minute you do stop one all you do is cut your own throat because when the money comes for it they will be ultra cautious and lay you nothing at odds. Run a horse on it's merits and you will always get better odds.
Never confuse stopping a horse with aiming him for a certain race. Trainers from every walk of racing do it time after time but many of them fail on the big day.
Jonjo is very guilty of training some horses on the racecourse are as many other trainers but he's not stopping them. Some horses simply don't put it in at home and need a run before they come to themselves others need several. When one does come to himself and shows marked improvement no doubt he calls Frank Berry and tells him it could run well to anything like have your house on it.
Whether JP can be ar$ed having a bet on every other horse a trainer thinks will win or not who knows but according to the man himself he very seldom bets these days.
I know Jonjo keeps most things to himself when it comes to JP's horses but there's a lot of smart people work at Jackdaw and Frank Berry will have his friends who are faces.
Word gets out a horse is showing marked improvement or a face walks into ladbrokes and sticks 2k on one of JP's and word will go from Cheltenham to Glasgow to Dublin quicker than you could drink a hot coffee.
I know when my late friend was riding I had backed several winners he had ridden. I tried to get on with a Coral's in Hamilton, got refused and they cut it fro 6/1 to 6/4 without laying a pebble. By the time I got to Hills a quarter of a mile away they had cut the horse to 7/4 and I doubt if they laid it either at longer odds. I was even pulled up by the area manager of Ladbrokes who said he didn't mind laying me a good bet but could I keep it to myself?. My friend became concerned and thought I had been sticking fortunes on the horse which wouldn't please the owner but I was telling no one when we fancied one. We got to the bottom of it and found out the manageress's in my home town were calling other shops who were telling punters and a 2k bet or whatever and it was snowballing into a 20k bet due to half of Glasgow backing them. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here what I am trying to do Slim is point out nothing is ever what it seems in racing where betting is concerned.
I know for a fact he was approached to stop a well fancied horse race at Perth and without a moments hesitation told the owner to go f*** himself and he rode several good horses for him. JP is simply not the type ask any trainer to stop a horse and even Jonjo who depends on him would be gobsmacked if he did. No I am not saying Jonjo is a saint I knew what he was like first hand when he was riding but that was then and this is now.
The top and bottom of it Slim is you are away off the mark. JP has way too much respect for himself and to get involved in skulduggery at such at low level. If he were to be pulled up for instructing a trainer to stop a horse and criminal charge brought against him he'd lose the support of many of the people who support and work with him to help others in need.
If I have said it once I've said it a hundred times. The secret is not stopping horses it's having one good enough to stop and you don't get many of them in a bag of coal.
There's no way JP or Frank Berry calls Jonjo up or any other trainer to stop a horse who is fit and well enough to win. Not in this day and age because you simply wouldn't get away with it. BY that I am not just talking about Stewards but bookies and pundits who go racing every day.
The minute you do stop one all you do is cut your own throat because when the money comes for it they will be ultra cautious and lay you nothing at odds. Run a horse on it's merits and you will always get better odds.
Never confuse stopping a horse with aiming him for a certain race. Trainers from every walk of racing do it time after time but many of them fail on the big day.
Jonjo is very guilty of training some horses on the racecourse are as many other trainers but he's not stopping them. Some horses simply don't put it in at home and need a run before they come to themselves others need several. When one does come to himself and shows marked improvement no doubt he calls Frank Berry and tells him it could run well to anything like have your house on it.
Whether JP can be ar$ed having a bet on every other horse a trainer thinks will win or not who knows but according to the man himself he very seldom bets these days.
I know Jonjo keeps most things to himself when it comes to JP's horses but there's a lot of smart people work at Jackdaw and Frank Berry will have his friends who are faces.
Word gets out a horse is showing marked improvement or a face walks into ladbrokes and sticks 2k on one of JP's and word will go from Cheltenham to Glasgow to Dublin quicker than you could drink a hot coffee.
I know when my late friend was riding I had backed several winners he had ridden. I tried to get on with a Coral's in Hamilton, got refused and they cut it fro 6/1 to 6/4 without laying a pebble. By the time I got to Hills a quarter of a mile away they had cut the horse to 7/4 and I doubt if they laid it either at longer odds. I was even pulled up by the area manager of Ladbrokes who said he didn't mind laying me a good bet but could I keep it to myself?. My friend became concerned and thought I had been sticking fortunes on the horse which wouldn't please the owner but I was telling no one when we fancied one. We got to the bottom of it and found out the manageress's in my home town were calling other shops who were telling punters and a 2k bet or whatever and it was snowballing into a 20k bet due to half of Glasgow backing them. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here what I am trying to do Slim is point out nothing is ever what it seems in racing where betting is concerned.
I know for a fact he was approached to stop a well fancied horse race at Perth and without a moments hesitation told the owner to go f*** himself and he rode several good horses for him. JP is simply not the type ask any trainer to stop a horse and even Jonjo who depends on him would be gobsmacked if he did. No I am not saying Jonjo is a saint I knew what he was like first hand when he was riding but that was then and this is now.
The top and bottom of it Slim is you are away off the mark. JP has way too much respect for himself and to get involved in skulduggery at such at low level. If he were to be pulled up for instructing a trainer to stop a horse and criminal charge brought against him he'd lose the support of many of the people who support and work with him to help others in need.
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Singing Detective
At the Start
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S
SlimChance
Guest
I stopped reading your essay after this. You're naive.
EC1
On a break
all this nudge nudge wink wink stuff might be all right for us to chew cud over..but i can guarantee you that stunts like yesterdays..particularly involving a very well known jockey ..will do more harm to the game than good with the wider public..no matter how macho people think they are by "knowing" something
you have to decide what you want really..too be in the know with all the sickly smugness that goes with it..or have a game that might actually appeal to the masses...so it does actually keep taking place
not much point being on the fiddle and in the know when there is no meetings taking place.
you have to decide what you want really..too be in the know with all the sickly smugness that goes with it..or have a game that might actually appeal to the masses...so it does actually keep taking place
not much point being on the fiddle and in the know when there is no meetings taking place.
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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But the wider public have no interest in racing, and wouldn't think switching the champion jockey onto a horse to replace someone less talented, was in any way moody - indeed they'd probably think it perfectly logical.
They know jack about jockey declarations and even less about the impact of the switch on betting markets. And even if they did, they choose to bet on scratch-cards and footy.....with maybe the occassional bet on a signature horse-race. It's a total myth that there are hordes of fresh punters out there, just itching to bet on horse-racing, if only it wasn't 'bent'. These people don't actually exist, and I find all the huffing-and-puffing about them a bit odd, I have to say.
They know jack about jockey declarations and even less about the impact of the switch on betting markets. And even if they did, they choose to bet on scratch-cards and footy.....with maybe the occassional bet on a signature horse-race. It's a total myth that there are hordes of fresh punters out there, just itching to bet on horse-racing, if only it wasn't 'bent'. These people don't actually exist, and I find all the huffing-and-puffing about them a bit odd, I have to say.
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EC1
On a break
These people do exist though..they hear people talk about it who do know..and over a period of time mindsets are formed..its a bent game..not worth bothering with
people who are dabbling with horse racing and other sports do know the significance of yesterdays stunt ..and swing away from bothering with racing and do football instead...many are in that position..yesterdays sad effort won't help a leaning away from footy towards racing will it
what was done yesterday was something a 10 year old kid could have done..if anyone thinks that was shrewd then they must be easily impressed..the jockey swap was totally unnecessary and just makes the trainer look a total dick to me.
if you are stuck in the 70's Grass then thats up to you..we live in a world now with plenty of knowledge flying around....people hear lots..and form opinions and attitudes very easily
i'm not huffing and puffing..just don't understand the admiration for what was a particularly sad little action by someone who clearly doesn't give a toss about the game as a whole
there will be another thread in a bit about why folk don't go racing any more...well the answer is partly on this thread
if these people don't exist...when we all gone then no one will go racing following that logic..you don't think getting people to follow racing is important?..are you sure?
we are in a betting world that has a lot of competition..not like 30 years ago ..where yesterdays poor effort really belongs...and those that think it were shrewd probably belong too
people who are dabbling with horse racing and other sports do know the significance of yesterdays stunt ..and swing away from bothering with racing and do football instead...many are in that position..yesterdays sad effort won't help a leaning away from footy towards racing will it
what was done yesterday was something a 10 year old kid could have done..if anyone thinks that was shrewd then they must be easily impressed..the jockey swap was totally unnecessary and just makes the trainer look a total dick to me.
if you are stuck in the 70's Grass then thats up to you..we live in a world now with plenty of knowledge flying around....people hear lots..and form opinions and attitudes very easily
i'm not huffing and puffing..just don't understand the admiration for what was a particularly sad little action by someone who clearly doesn't give a toss about the game as a whole
there will be another thread in a bit about why folk don't go racing any more...well the answer is partly on this thread
if these people don't exist...when we all gone then no one will go racing following that logic..you don't think getting people to follow racing is important?..are you sure?
we are in a betting world that has a lot of competition..not like 30 years ago ..where yesterdays poor effort really belongs...and those that think it were shrewd probably belong too
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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I'm not in any way condoning what happened yesterday, EC1.
I only made comment on the mythical punters queuing up to bet on horse-racing. On this matter, I'm in disagreement with you. Horse-racing is too arcane and inscrutable a sport for a casual 'punter' ever to take seriously as a betting proposition. It needs commitment to bet at this game, because it takes time to learn the mechanics of form - of which you must have at least a rudimentary command to consider it a serious gaming proposition - and most people don't have the patience/attention-span.
Anyone who bets on horse-racing semi-regularly (or semi-seriously) will already be aware of the risks associated with such antics, and if they have a brain in their head, they will have factored any risk into the equation before betting.
For me, whilst unwelcome, stunts like yesterdays don't chase money away from the sport, and the impact on Levy is negligible; for the simple reason that such money is always transient anyway, and would be small beer considering the race circumstances (mid-week Jumps meeting at the tail-end of the summer)
I only made comment on the mythical punters queuing up to bet on horse-racing. On this matter, I'm in disagreement with you. Horse-racing is too arcane and inscrutable a sport for a casual 'punter' ever to take seriously as a betting proposition. It needs commitment to bet at this game, because it takes time to learn the mechanics of form - of which you must have at least a rudimentary command to consider it a serious gaming proposition - and most people don't have the patience/attention-span.
Anyone who bets on horse-racing semi-regularly (or semi-seriously) will already be aware of the risks associated with such antics, and if they have a brain in their head, they will have factored any risk into the equation before betting.
For me, whilst unwelcome, stunts like yesterdays don't chase money away from the sport, and the impact on Levy is negligible; for the simple reason that such money is always transient anyway, and would be small beer considering the race circumstances (mid-week Jumps meeting at the tail-end of the summer)
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Two questions:
If Jim Best had rung you this morning and told you to lump on would you have? I would.
How many people who are not proper racing fans would have known about today's events or even understood what happened? Hardly any. It didn't make the news feed on the RP ffs.
McCoy is a great jockey. No doubt. And a decent bloke as well IMHO, met him when he rode for us and he comes across as a genuine guy. His agent will book and arrange all his rides anyway won't he?
If Jim Best had rung you this morning and told you to lump on would you have? I would.
How many people who are not proper racing fans would have known about today's events or even understood what happened? Hardly any. It didn't make the news feed on the RP ffs.
McCoy is a great jockey. No doubt. And a decent bloke as well IMHO, met him when he rode for us and he comes across as a genuine guy. His agent will book and arrange all his rides anyway won't he?
EC1
On a break
fair enough Grass
no i wouldn't lumped on ..the sire is poor over jumps..and if the info was that good it would have won head in chest..not scramble home under a McCoy special. Most trainer info is only about their own horses..what if someone else in race is doing something similar?
how many will lump on next time it runs?..its got loads in hand according to how they bet it..i doubt that very much
no i wouldn't lumped on ..the sire is poor over jumps..and if the info was that good it would have won head in chest..not scramble home under a McCoy special. Most trainer info is only about their own horses..what if someone else in race is doing something similar?
how many will lump on next time it runs?..its got loads in hand according to how they bet it..i doubt that very much
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Perfectly put
It chips away. That's what some can't seem to get. It's not the only game in town now
When I go in a bookies to watch a big race when out and about, how many others are bothered? Barely anyone
Channel 4 viewing figures in freefall and kicked off a lot of newspaper coverage too
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None of this matters one bit
When the public reads about instances such as barney happyface Curley and his supposedly wonderful stunt, they will think very clever but fck off and not for me
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Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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That's not my point.
The money that racing 'doesn't get' from this constituency is negligible. And it was never going to be for keeps anyway, because racing is too hard to 'get into' for most. They can have an informed bet on the footy with much, much less effort.
The money that racing 'doesn't get' from this constituency is negligible. And it was never going to be for keeps anyway, because racing is too hard to 'get into' for most. They can have an informed bet on the footy with much, much less effort.
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