Arkle

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
25,629
The horse, not the race...


Nice piece by Brough Scott in today's RP, 50 years after his third Gold Cup.

Reminds me how much superior Himself was to the modern-day greats.
 
1964 Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDNPTJs4PU

1965 + 1966 Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=zV5cpc2LmK8

1965 Gallagher Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tamkrqCAegs

1965 Whitbread Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6kYAcEcAg

1964 Irish National
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnNkqUg5iVo

Profile 1968
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ifmQf4KCE

1966 Hennessey Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjscqxg1xgE

The two horses who Arkle gave 35lb to in that race are here

1967 Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f94-q_bxbm8

thats giving 35lb to horses good enough to run a close 2nd + 3rd in a GC...they are normally on average about 165/166 hosses ..so when beaten ..Arkle was a 200 OHR hoss..and he churned out results in nearly every race like that...not just one or two

on a good day...how good?

how many 200 rated OHR hosses have i seen since i started watching racing in the mid 70's?..none..the best is KS who was given a 193 when the race fell apart in the KG due to crushing early pace which exaggerated the winning distances.....KS was rated 186 at best before that KG..that is the best i've seen along with Desert Orchid Denman...and an in pomp Spriinter Sacre.

Many will argue with the rating Arkle got..but he was a Frankel/Secretariat model..the type of horse that expands our reality in what is possible re racehorse performance. He is the only horse in history that made them change the handicap system...one set of weights if he ran..another if he didn't..never been done before or since.

before Frankel it was thought impossible to do what he did..likewise Secretariat...thought impossible due to us not believing it possible to be that good...once you get used to seeing very very good horses your horizons are set at that level..then something comes along and blows that belief system apart..but only very rarely does it happen in a lifetime.

we had a glimpse of an Arkle type recently when Sprinter Sacre was in his pomp..yes it is possible to win top races without coming off the bridle..but watching SS in his pomp..did anyone think a NH hoss could do that to other good horses.

these horses are once in a lifetimers really..freaks of the game

all just imo
 
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Watch how he pulled through the first circuit in 64 Gold Cup and yet ran away from Mill House; ditto the Gallagher Chase 65 with 12-7.
also check how few runners there were in so many of the races; compare to these days when less than 10 runners per major race has us complaining of WPM/ Giggi dominance, and how odds on shots are bad for racing !
 
Sorry for intruding on your topic Mo, but if any readers have a link to the totality of Dawn Runs racing career by race can the add it here. RP, ATR, Irish Racing have deleted it.
 
Sorry for intruding on your topic Mo, but if any readers have a link to the totality of Dawn Runs racing career by race can the add it here. RP, ATR, Irish Racing have deleted it.


I can give you the totality of her career, An: jammy bitch.

Won a substandard Champion Hurdle and only won the Gold Cup because Wayward Lad couldn't have got up the hill on an escalator.
 
I can give you the totality of her career, An: jammy bitch.

Won a substandard Champion Hurdle and only won the Gold Cup because Wayward Lad couldn't have got up the hill on an escalator.

She was also the first to benefit from the 7 lb allowance for mares, introduced in 1984.

For all that she defeated the Champion 2 Mile chaser Buck House on every occasion she met him hurdles and fences so was no slow coach.
The only Irish / English / French Champion hurdle winner the same season, even HF did not manage that .
 
1964 Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDNPTJs4PU

1965 + 1966 Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=zV5cpc2LmK8

1965 Gallagher Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tamkrqCAegs

1965 Whitbread Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6kYAcEcAg

1964 Irish National
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnNkqUg5iVo

Profile 1968
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ifmQf4KCE

1966 Hennessey Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjscqxg1xgE

The two horses who Arkle gave 35lb to in that race are here

1967 Gold Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f94-q_bxbm8

thats giving 35lb to horses good enough to run a close 2nd + 3rd in a GC...they are normally on average about 165/166 hosses ..so when beaten ..Arkle was a 200 OHR hoss..and he churned out results in nearly every race like that...not just one or two

on a good day...how good?

how many 200 rated OHR hosses have i seen since i started watching racing in the mid 70's?..none..the best is KS who was given a 193 when the race fell apart in the KG due to crushing early pace which exaggerated the winning distances.....KS was rated 186 at best before that KG..that is the best i've seen along with Desert Orchid Denman...and an in pomp Spriinter Sacre.

Many will argue with the rating Arkle got..but he was a Frankel/Secretariat model..the type of horse that expands our reality in what is possible re racehorse performance. He is the only horse in history that made them change the handicap system...one set of weights if he ran..another if he didn't..never been done before or since.

before Frankel it was thought impossible to do what he did..likewise Secretariat...thought impossible due to us not believing it possible to be that good...once you get used to seeing very very good horses your horizons are set at that level..then something comes along and blows that belief system apart..but only very rarely does it happen in a lifetime.

we had a glimpse of an Arkle type recently when Sprinter Sacre was in his pomp..yes it is possible to win top races without coming off the bridle..but watching SS in his pomp..did anyone think a NH hoss could do that to other good horses.

these horses are once in a lifetimers really..freaks of the game

all just imo

The video of the Whitbread is spine tingling stuff . Carrying 12-7 he pulls like a train , takes off when Scottish National winner Brasher tries to make a fight of it and pricks his ears at the last and bombs up the hill to win in the bit .
 
I had never seen the full 1965 Gallaher Gold Cup before . Quite extraordinary no wonder he held the Sandown course record for so long . He would lap this year's Gold Cup field .
 
She was also the first to benefit from the 7 lb allowance for mares, introduced in 1984.

Yes although I think it might only have been 5lbs back then.

It just goes to show what winning high profile races can do. The O'Sullevan commentaries also helped 'make' her.

Had they just described what she was really doing - beating second-raters and non-stayers- in appropriately dead-pan tones she'd never have got the same adulation. I'm not sure she was that much better than Flakey Dove or Nortons Coin.
 
Yes although I think it might only have been 5lbs back then.

It just goes to show what winning high profile races can do. The O'Sullevan commentaries also helped 'make' her.

Had they just described what she was really doing - beating second-raters and non-stayers- in appropriately dead-pan tones she'd never have got the same adulation. I'm not sure she was that much better than Flakey Dove or Nortons Coin.

The difference is Nortons Coin won no CH and Flakey Dove no GC.
Irish Handicapper had her in receipt of 5lb from Burrough Hill Lad for Irish Grand National 1986 when the weights came out so 5lb was the sex allowance.
I remember Cork Examiner racing journalist "The Phoenix " held your opinion at the time DO and the hate mail he received was something else.
The paper was printing these letters for weeks on end afterwards, it was great fun: forget Sir Peter, it was the Cork Examiner that gave Dawn Run immortal status !
 
I never understood the negativity towards her, she was very talented, had enormous courage and was very prolific.

The year she won the Champion Hurdle she won 7 other races, including the Irish and French versions and the big hurdles at Kempton and Aintree.

Her novice year as a chaser was restricted to one race, I think, so she wasn't far off being a novice when she won the Gold Cup the following season, having defeated Silver Buck over 2m4f en route.
 
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I agree Grey.

There does seem to be those who like do downplay her achievements through Cima and jeez even Wayward Lad. As if beating Gaye Brief (Kempton) and Forgive n Forget was something straightforward.
Any Gold Cup winner that beats the Champion Chaser in the same season is something special. Norton's Coin.....

Definitely lucky that Burrough Hill Lad injured himself before the race though.

One of the arguments that I heard at the time was that the Dickenson's/Fitzgerald's weren't fit. Was the Pillar/Cotswold Chase that Dawn Run unseated in not communicated to the North.

Its pretty strange for a Christmas Hurdle winner to outstay Gold Cup/Welsh National winners in a stamina test.
 
I loved Arkle but it's fairy story this 212

Us old timer's usually stick by our guns like the older guys than me say Rocky Marciano would have murdered Ali...in his fookin dreams he would have.

I think I am a realist and the way I see it Arkle would have to give Desert Orchid 1st11 Lbs.

Well let's look at happened when Arkle 12st10bs tried to give that same weight to Buona Notte 1st 12lbs

It's the race they never talk about.

Buona Notte was the same age as Arkle but a mere novice in comparison and while Arkle had run twice that season this was the first race of the season for the Turnell horse who had suffered a set back.


Going to the last Buana Notte was running all over Arkle and the eventual winner Flying Wild and I swear was going so easily would have won by 6 lengths.

Unfortunately in novice fashion he ploughed straight through the last fence and handed the race to Flying Wild, finished 2nd and Arkle back in 3rd.

So as far as I am concerned if he couldn't give the weight to a high class novice how could anyone in their right mind say he could have given so much weight to Dessie or for that matter the brilliant Kauto Star.

I shall tell you of Arkle but historians from Ireland will say I am a liar, but racing history is written by those who have their own reasons and all those reasons are good. That does not mean those of us who have a mind of our own can not see through the hype and the beauty of it all were it true.
 
Jonjo factor, too. Wasn't he diagnosed with cancer, just after Dawn Run's last race?
Best you read it for yourself.


JONJO O’NEILL COMEBACK

During the first of Jonjo O’Neill’s famous comebacks it was his leg that he and the doctors were trying to save. During the second, in 1986, six years after the freak accident at Bangor which snapped his right leg so brutally that it felt “just like a bag of gravel”, the stakes were somewhat higher. Cancer had struck. This time they were trying to save Jonjo’s life.

The darkness of those storm clouds of yesteryear should not be too easily lost in the sunshine of Jonjo’s smile. The beaming face under the top hat watching Well Snap come home at Royal Ascot and the smiling man in a suit giving credit to jockey Graham Lee after Tominator’s astonishing final furlong Northumberland Plate victory last Saturday seem to be that of a man at peace with himself. But, even if he won’t say this himself, to truly understand Jonjo O’Neill you have to appreciate that he has twice had to go to war with his body. And that the battles were not easily won.

In truth there was a third and earlier disaster, at Teeside Park early in 1975 when what was at the time no more than a two season career of promise seemed to be snuffed out long before its time. It was about as brutal as these things get and if you are reading this at the breakfast table you might like to finish eating first.

Jonjo was minding his own business on a blameless animal called Night Affair when the horse in front ran out and sent Night Affair and his rider through wing of the hurdle. “He wrapped my right leg round the wooden post at the end of the wing,” was Jonjo’s graphic recollection in his 1985 autobiography, “and as I slid to the ground I could see the bone below the knee sticking out through my riding boot. It was like an enormous nail protruding from my boot and after staring at it for a second, I leaned forward, grabbed the bone and straightened the leg. After those initial seconds the pain took over, roaring through my whole body. Every nerve was stretched to breaking point. I wanted to haul myself to my feet and run away to take my mind off the agony. But all I could do was to lie and wait, tearing at the Teeside turf with my fingers.”

Treatment, especially with pain relief and fracture plating, was still fairly primitive in the 1970s. Jonjo did not get any medication until reaching the ambulance room and at Teeside Hospital he was put from ankle to hip into a soon-blood soaked plaster cast which two weeks later had him rushed back into intensive care with a grapefruit sized blood clot below the knee. But the little ginger haired grocer’s son from Castletownroche in County Cork would not be denied. As a sure foretaste of what was to come he pulled through the long weeks of pain, immobility, and depression to bob back six months later with a winner on the flat at Hamilton.

By the time of the Bangor fall five years later, Jonjo O’Neill had twice been champion jockey, had ridden a then record 149 total in the season 1977/78, topped the century again in 1979/80, won the Gold Cup on Alverton in 1979 and the Champion Hurdle on Sea Pigeon in 1980. On the first day of Royal Ascot that summer he and his first wife Sheila had bought a farm near Penrith from which he planned to train in the future. He was a hard-working, smiling, god-fearing soul nobody had a bad word for. But in mid race on a hurdler called Simbad, the fates played him an even worse card than they had at Stockton.

“Simbad caught the top of the hurdle, sprawled on the grass and skidded along on his belly for twenty yards or so,” recalls Jonjo. “I was still on him and only when he started to roll over did I step off him, just like jumping off a bike. I pulled my right leg up and over and as it stuck out I pushed it between the hind legs of another horse. It is virtually impossible to put the handle of a brush between the hind legs of another horse’s legs when he is going at full gallop, but somehow I poked my leg there. I saw what happened. The horse’s legs scissored mine in a cutting action. I heard a horrid crack. Felt excruciating pain as I lay flat on the Welsh turf nursing the lower part of my leg which was like a bag of gravel. Lots of broken bones.”

Jonjo was in deep trouble but by now he had both experience and allies, most notably the splendid, saintly, mutton chopped figure of Carlisle Orthopaedic surgeon Hugh Barber who had become something of an expert at sticking O’Neill back together. Indeed if the jockey had listened to him the Bangor recovery might have proceeded well enough to have made what seemed like two dates with destiny at Cheltenham next March, Sea Pigeon in the Champion Hurdle and Night Nurse in the Gold Cup. But Jonjo had not got this far with prudence foremost amongst his virtues and now took every furtive opportunity to test the still unhealed leg culminating in the folly of a gallop on Wigton Aerodrome which ended in searing pain and a shame-faced visit to Hugh Barber to re-start the whole process.

So much damage had been done that not only did Jonjo have to watch John Francome give a waiting ride master class in the Champion Hurdle on Sea Pigeon; by May the problems were still so deep-set that Hugh Barber arranged a last throw trip to Professor Martin Allgower’s renowned clinic in Basle, Switzerland. Before the operation what seemed likely to be an ex-jockey signed a form to give permission to amputate if things looked too bad during surgery. When Jonjo came round he was so convinced he had lost the leg that the nurse had to gently take off the covers so he could see his right toes wiggle.

This time prudence got a much better hearing. It was not until September that he got back into any saddle and then not until a glorious first of December at Wetherby that the name J.J. O Neill was once again raised on the racecourse number board. A record crowd flocked the enclosures, newsmen, photographers and television crews hounded Jonjo like a film star at a Premiere. It took him just three rides to deliver and as the gallant mare Realt Na Nona was led back into an ecstatic unsaddling enclosure the scenes of simple, bursting, unadulterated happiness remain forever in the memory.

Two days later he had five more rides albeit no winner up at Ayr. Seeing O’Neill the jockey up close once again made me marvel at the contrast. Out of the saddle, then as now, he had a gentle, boyish, country boy Irish charm; in it he was a little crouched-up tiger with the most compulsive winner rate in the game and as he used arms, whip and banshee yells at the final flight there was no doubt that the tiger was back.

As he towelled off his sturdy 5ft 6in frame afterwards, the first impression was of the astonishing level of conditioning already reached. “Ah yes I am fit as a flea,” he said. “But I have really grafted, have been bicycling all over the Lake District and on the farm I have worked like a slave.” The second impression was of the greater perspective provided during the lay-off by such things such as TV appearances, store openings, a newspaper column and a surely rather perilous milk commercial in which he jumped the open ditch at Newbury. “I love this game,” he said patting his gingery side-whiskers in the saddle-strewn warmth of the weighing room. “I’ve always said I would do it for nothing, and that’s still true. But while I may not have learnt much more about racing in the past year, I certainly have about people.”

In the years that followed it really seemed that the fates were delivering on their bargain. Jonjo rode 74 winners the next season and 103 (to John Francome’s table topping 131) in 1983-4 including a Champion Hurdle victory on the idolised Irish mare Dawn Run which so overexcited the crowd that the jockey nearly had his saddle and weight cloth snatched away as mementoes before weighing in. As he closed on the prospect of riding Dawn Run to what was to be a history making double in the 1986 Gold Cup, the world would have thought that Jonjo now had fortune forever as an ally. The world would have been wrong.

For all the dynamism which shines out of perhaps the most memorable all Gold Cup finishes with Dawn Run clawing back her rivals to Peter O’Sullevan’s immortal line “and the mare is getting up”, a cloud was hanging over Jonjo. “I was tired all through that season,” said Jonjo last Saturday at Newcastle airport sitting with his wife Jackie with whom he has built a magnificent training life in the Cotswolds. “I would want to stop for tea at every motorway service station and could not stay awake. There was something wrong with me but I could not say anything because you don’t get any rides if you say you are retiring.”

The end came after the Scottish National Meeting in April but improvement did not come with it. “I took my trainer’s licence and we already had 20 horses,” said Jonjo on Saturday, “but I was still getting weaker. Then I remember my daughter’s birthday in July. We had bought her a little pink bicycle and I could not even lift it out of the car. I went to see Hugh Barber. He said he did not like the look of things. It was cancer. He got me to the hospital in Manchester and…….” There was a pause, and because did not want to revisit those days again, he just gave that infectious warming laugh and added “and then they cured it. Listen,” he continued a touch more seriously, “as a jockey you break your leg but you know you will get better if you give it a bit of time. With Cancer back then, the immediate thought was that you were going to die. I could not handle it basically.”

He had been prepared to a say a bit more coming up to Christmas in 1987. A week earlier the BBC TV Review of The Year had a poignant flashback of a bald, frail faced Jonjo at the 1986 gathering and Desmond Lynam eased us into the wincingly difficult word by asking a now smiling, curly haired Jonjo, the almost cosy question “how is the old cancer?” Now we were part of a four strong posse of horses picking our way alongside the Beck that runs alongside Calder Fell. “Those treatments used to really flatten me,” said Jonjo of the eight gut wrenching sessions of chemotherapy and one of radium that he had been put through. “When we got to the fifth I felt I couldn’t take any more. I told them to leave me alone. They were very nice and just said ‘fine’ but would I like something to send me to sleep? I said ‘okay’ and went off to sleep only to wake up being as sick as a dog. They had given the treatment in the night. They were wonderful, wonderful people.”

There were of course other forms of assistance, most of all from Sheila and the family. But throughout the ordeal O’Neill, a Catholic, had kept a pretty open line to the top which he explained with a delightful Irishism half way down the Fell with the fields networking away across the vale. “I’m not very religious,” said Jonjo, “ but I am a great believer in faith. When I was a little better I managed up to here. I thought if I could get this far, I couldn’t be dying.”

Much has happened in both his personal and professional life since that December morning on Calder Fell. Great empires have been served, Grand Nationals and Gold Cup not to mention Royal Ascot races have been won and the drive for more continues beneath the smile. It is what lifted him through three-fold disaster. It remains an inspiration to us all.
 
I loved Arkle but it's fairy story this 212

Us old timer's usually stick by our guns like the older guys than me say Rocky Marciano would have murdered Ali...in his fookin dreams he would have.

I think I am a realist and the way I see it Arkle would have to give Desert Orchid 1st11 Lbs.

Well let's look at happened when Arkle 12st10bs tried to give that same weight to Buona Notte 1st 12lbs

It's the race they never talk about.

Buona Notte was the same age as Arkle but a mere novice in comparison and while Arkle had run twice that season this was the first race of the season for the Turnell horse who had suffered a set back.


Going to the last Buana Notte was running all over Arkle and the eventual winner Flying Wild and I swear was going so easily would have won by 6 lengths.

Unfortunately in novice fashion he ploughed straight through the last fence and handed the race to Flying Wild, finished 2nd and Arkle back in 3rd.

So as far as I am concerned if he couldn't give the weight to a high class novice how could anyone in their right mind say he could have given so much weight to Dessie or for that matter the brilliant Kauto Star.

I shall tell you of Arkle but historians from Ireland will say I am a liar, but racing history is written by those who have their own reasons and all those reasons are good. That does not mean those of us who have a mind of our own can not see through the hype and the beauty of it all were it true.

Read John Oaksey's acconut of that race Tanlic;it was 7 days after his Hennessey win , he had a mandatory 3 lb penalty.

Oaksey reckoned it was the best run of Arkle's career and The Noble lord was no Irishman last time I looked .
 
Thank you for that, Tanlic - magnificent account of Jonjo's injuries and illness. I also remember the Des Lynam interview at the 1986 SPOTY, and being very upset at the time.

But back to Arkle: didn't he give 26lbs and a good beating to better horses than Buena Notte?
 
Best run or not best run he was beaten and 7 days after a canter round in the Hennessy......Plus Lord Oaksey was very very media orientated and his job was to sell racing, God bless him.

You can make all the excuses you want and people do when the unbeatable are beaten.

Kauto would have murdered him round Kempton getting the kind of weight that 212 suggests
The difference in ratings is just complete nonsense
 
You can make all the excuses you want and people do when the unbeatable are beaten.

unbeatable when beaten?..at level weights..maybe..i wouldn't really call be being beaten when carrying 2 or 3 stone more..actually being beaten. How many hosses today would you see run 7 days after a hennessey?..none is the answer..you lucky to see a hoss run 3 times a season these days. If Arkle were running these days his career record woulld be way shorter in number of runs than in those days.

there isn't a horse around now or then that can give the weight that Arkle gave to other good hosses.

for instance.....its not long ago that Denman was called a world beater for carrying top weight in the hennessey..folk were having orgasms..he gave 19lb to a 142 hoss..and it was the best thing since sliced bread

Arkle regularly gave 35lb to 160+ hosses..shelling peas to him

there is a slight difference there

you pick one hoss out of dozens to try to crab the hoss..i could do that with KS as well..could do it with any..a proper judgement of a hoss ability isn't done in that manner..only someone trying to pull a hoss down does that ..come on. I could do it with Frankel in the St James Palace when he was ridden like he was in a 4f race..hardly representative of his true level was it?

as far as KS being unbeatable at Kempton..i'll wager you are taking the one where the pace collapsed and the winning distances were not really in line with true superiority..Madison du berlais in 2nd. Its simple really ...when the pace crushes the field..they finish very slowly if near the pace.....remove that win and KS at Kempton is a 186 hoss..and you are stretching to give him that rating based on his other KG wins....yes thats good enough to beat any hoss ...bar one.

KS is the best i've seen since the mid 70's...SS maybe a higher rater but KS did it at different distances. If you take KS's 3 best win ratings and average the rating..and do the same with Arkle...there is only one winner. Thats not knocking KS..its just putting Arkle into perspective

in my opinion a rating of 200 minimum using OHR ratings is the bottom rating you can give Arkle..and he didn't just do that once

He also won at every course type there was..he didn't have "favourite" courses
 
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He could not win at Mullingar so they closed it, such was his influence !

Funny enough Ted Walsh's memory of that Massey Ferguson was of " Tommy Carberry on Flying Wild making Johnny Haine on BN look like a schoolboy "
now there is Irish Historical Revisionism for you Tanlic !
 
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