Ascot Chase

The only reason Shishkin is shorter than Gallopin Des Champs is WPM wouldn't run him in a King George.

This season he made a very wise move and entered him for the 47k John Durkan, then he ran in the IGC and picked up another 140K.

Not only did the two race give him the perfect build up to the Gold Cup without breaking sweat he won nearly 50k more than he would have winning a King George.

Shishkin is a very good horse but comparing him to Gallopin Des Champs is like comparing a raft to a motor boat.
 
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Well see after Cheltenham which horse gets more plaudits and become a future Champion.
Galopin Des Champs is already being hailed the best Mullins has ever trained which I happen to agree with

Shishkin wouldn't even be fav for the Ryanair if Alloha was running and he wouldn't be rated anywhere near the top of Nicky's past chasers.
 
Shishkin is too fragile to be taking a short price about at the festival. I certainly wouldn't be backing it antepost for the KG for the same reason.
 
Tanlic said:
Well see after Cheltenham which horse gets more plaudits and become a future Champion.
Galopin Des Champs is already being hailed the best Mullins has ever trained which I happen to agree with

Shishkin wouldn't even be fav for the Ryanair if Alloha was running and he wouldn't be rated anywhere near the top of Nicky's past chasers.
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Shishkin has won a Supreme Novices and an Arkle. He's also achieved a higher rating this season than GDC has achieved, and achieved a higher rating in the Clarence House last season than anything GDC has achieved.

I know you're not a fan of the horse (plenty evidence on here that you have consistently under-rated him), but to suggest he is a raft versus a motor-boat, is a complete nonsense on every possible level. Now go and sit in the corner, and have a think about things before you reply.

PS. I couldn't GAF about plaudits. Paisley Park is still receiving them from large tracts of the racing press, despite being a self-evident boat and jinky hound to boot.
 
Grasshopper said:
Shishkin has won a Supreme Novices and an Arkle. He's also achieved a higher rating this season than GDC has achieved, and achieved a higher rating in the Clarence House last season than anything GDC has achieved.

I know you're not a fan of the horse (plenty evidence on here that you have consistently under-rated him), but to suggest he is a raft versus a motor-boat, is a complete nonsense on every possible level. Now go and sit in the corner, and have a think about things before you reply.

PS. I couldn't GAF about plaudits. Paisley Park is still receiving them from large tracts of the racing press, despite being a self-evident boat and jinky hound to boot.
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Shiskin also beat Fakir D'Oudaries 10 lengths further than Galopin did too.
 
Tanlic said:
On all known info Nicky has made a wise decision in my opinion

There wasn't much between Shishkin and Energymene over 2 miles.

Shishkin may be better over the longer trip but he's only beaten a Grade2 chaser in Pic D'Orhy

Compared to Galopin De Champs Pic D'Orhy is a cart horse.

Despite what the handicapper says if you told Willie Mullins Energymene was as good as Galopin Des Champs I supect he'd laugh in your face.

No brainer he runs in the Ryanair is the right decison
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Do you actually read the form,or just don't understand it?
Energumene went too fast too quickly in last season's Clarence house - the only reason Shishkin got near him, and to rate GDC superior to the soon to be dual 2m Champion shows your ratings owe more to optimism than hard fact,too.
 
What on earth are you going on about my understanding of race reading is way beyond anything you will ever learn my friend.

The race was run in a realatively slow time for a grade 1... 16secs slow so the pace was pretty normal, We got the impression Energymene looked better when held up in the QMCC but then he went to Ireland and was right up with the pace before jumping to the front 3 out............then he made all at Cork and after that was held up behind the leader in the Clarence house this season and that din't work out to well for him.

I do think he is better than his last run but whether he makes it or is held doesn't seem to make much differnce.

I get no WOW factor from watching Shishkin he's just a very good horse not a world beater like Altior or Sprinter. He has reached his peak and while he will most likely win a second rate Ryanair that is as far as he will go trust me

Galopin Des Champs gave me the biggest buzz in the Ladbrokes Novice Chase at Punchestown since Sprinter Sacre jumped the 5th fence at Doncaster. He is IMO a star in the making and ina different league to Shishkin.
 
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Tanlic said:
What on earth are you going on about my understanding of race reading is way beyond anything you will ever learn my friend.

The race was run in a realatively slow time for a grade 1... 16secs slow so the pace was pretty normal, We got the impression Energymene looked better when held up in the QMCC but then he went to Ireland and was right up with the pace before jumping to the front 3 out............then he made all at Cork and after that was held up behind the leader in the Clarence house this season and that din't work out to well for him.
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Your race reading doesn't allow for soft ground then, or that he was slowing down owing to the stern pace he'd set?
Feebler minds than yours might see his latest run as just part of his prep,too. :lol:
 
Maxbet said:
Like your reading of Appreciate It and El fabio
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What are you going on about, your post comes across like a previous one as downright sarcastic.

You got something to say cut out your sarcasm and post your thoughts if you actually have any sensible ones.

I did suggest Jonbon would outgun El Fabiolo in the Arkle but I have my reasons.

Those that disagree are quick to point out it was only El Faiola's 2nd race over hurdles and his 4th race of his life

However it was Jonbon's 5th race of the season and he wouldn't be the first horse in history to run well below his best at Aintree after being at peak fitness a few weeks earlier at the festival.

El Fabiolo won the Irish Arkle easily but Dysart Dynamo weren't seen at their best but Banbrige is a fair tool so he does deserve to share favourtism with Jonbon.

Jonbon's run at Warwick was a weird affair with Harry Skelton committing the cardinal sin like he was riding a finish 4 fences from home.

He never really had Jonbon in any trouble but according to Nicky it had done him the world of good and he was blowing for fully 40 minutes after the race.

So both should be at their peak but I just don't think Jonbon was at his best at Aintree and he was expected to win that race easily.
El Fabiolo on the wotherhand missed Cheltenham for Aintree and would have probably been 110% for the race.

What I liked about it is how Jonbon responded and hit the line that bit better than El Fabiolo
and with the uphill finish I think he's outgun him again.
 
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I don't think Shishkin is a GC horse purely because is so good at shorter. Going back a few years, we had this argument about Vautour I think. Shishkin is so a Ryanair job.

Belatedly congrats to Grass re your new arrival.:cool:
 
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To be fair to Tanlic, and I know it's not always easy, GDC is already rated higher than Shishkin and, being 2 years younger, has rather more scope for improvement. The boat comparison was overplayed but he's likely to be 180+ given a clear round in the Gold Cup and it would be no surprise to see him get to 185 in the next 12 months.

Compared to other Henderson horses, with Sprinter Sacre a 'great' and Altior 'very good', Shishkin is still only at the 'good' stage. If he matches Allaho and wins the Ryanair by 10 lengths he's probably entitled to 'very good'.
 
Shishkin has only had four more chase starts than GDC (three more under Rules), and off a less-than-ideal prep, is certainly open to improvement (imo) at intermediate trips, and potentially beyond.

I’ll concede on the OR - there’s 1lb in it, in favour of GDC.
 
Shishkin is what he is and has never been asked to take on anything remotely as good as Galopin Des Champs.

The top and bottom of it is something has to win these Grade 1 & 2 races and if you beat a couple of them then you will get a high rating automatically.

Just because a horse gets a 175 rating it doesn't mean he;s a true 175 horses.

Shishkin was put up to 177 2lb higher than Altior ever reached and 2 lbs higher than Sprinter Sacre was given for winning the QMCC from the brilliant Un Des Sceaux who won an Arkle and a Ryanair.

So please don't talk to me about ratingings as they don't mean **** when you are running in Group races.........You win one no matter how bad a race you go up..end of.
 
Tanlic said:
Shishkin is what he is and has never been asked to take on anything remotely as good as Galopin Des Champs.

The top and bottom of it is something has to win these Grade 1 & 2 races and if you beat a couple of them then you will get a high rating automatically.

Just because a horse gets a 175 rating it doesn't mean he;s a true 175 horses.

Shishkin was put up to 177 2lb higher than Altior ever reached and 2 lbs higher than Sprinter Sacre was given for winning the QMCC from the brilliant Un Des Sceaux who won an Arkle and a Ryanair.

So please don't talk to me about ratingings as they don't mean **** when you are running in Group races.........You win one no matter how bad a race you go up..end of.
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So far, Galopin has been beating the likes of Bob Olinger, Fakir D and Fury Road......who are hardly leading lights of the game. Certainly, none of the would be in the same parish talent-wise as Energumene. So - for consistencies sake - please apply the same level of scrutiny to the horse you do like, as you self-evidently apply to the one you don't. It's been sadly lacking in everything you've said above.
 
It would seem 90% of racegoers think Galopin Des Champs is by far the best chaser in training.

Despite some decent opposition in Bravemansgame, Stattler, A Plus Tard Protektorat and Ahoy Senor

He's the shortest priced antepost favourite at this stage since Kauto Star and looks likely to go off shorter than Bobsworth 7/4 did when he tried to win it for a second time.

Seems everyone can see he's head and shoulders above any staying chaser we have seen since Kauto Star..that's everyone except you.
 
archie said:
To be fair to Tanlic, and I know it's not always easy, GDC is already rated higher than Shishkin and, being 2 years younger, has rather more scope for improvement. The boat comparison was overplayed but he's likely to be 180+ given a clear round in the Gold Cup and it would be no surprise to see him get to 185 in the next 12 months.

Shishkin is already very good but will never be a great.

A racing fans dream come true would be:- Constitution Hill V Gallopin Des Champs in the 2026 Gold Cup the biggest thing since Arkle V Mill House.
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