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Big Yards - Can They Get Too Big?

Grasshopper

Grasshopper

Senior Jockey
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Messages
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Prompted by Maruco's suggestion that Henry de Bromhead is a "much better" trainer of chasers than Willie Mullins (I personally don't agree), is it possible that some of the major training operations are just too big to do justice to all of the horses in their care?

A Mullins or a Nicholls have all mod cons at their disposal, and theoretically horses in their care should benefit the most, but is there a case to be made for instead having your horse with a smaller trainer, where it can receive more niche attention - even if money is no object?

Do we think some horses of lesser-quality in bigger yards are perhaps penalised in some way, due to most of the focus being on the stars?
 
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Not necessarily, but in some cases the answer is likely to be yes. Ultimately the bigger the string the harder it is for horses down the pecking order to get individual attention.

Having a bigger yard, ie having more boxes and more horses puts more pressure on facilities, people, work riders, administration, etc.

Some trainers have the investment to increase everything in line with that, whereas others put up another american barn and carry on as they were expecting to get better results.
 
Donald McCain.

I was convinced he was a future champion trainer in waiting but in my (not worth a lot but i'll give it anyway) opinion, he took on too many horses and lost his way a bit. It might be his training methods as he couldn't coax out the longevity of career, that say Nicholls can, or it might be lack of good horseflesh but he's had backing until he lost the Rooney horses. I hope he turns it round and his win % is better this year but I genuinely thought he'd be fighting with Nicholls for the title by now.
 
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De Bromhead is a better trainer of chasers than he is of hurdlers and although Mulling GB record for Chasers isn't that impressive overall De Bromhead falls well short Mullins's percentage.

Mullins has no equal Hurdlers chaser or NH flat races.

To answer Grassy's question there's no real evidence of that. PN and Nicky have round about the same amount of horses in training 150 plus and both have excellent strike rates.

Alan King has a similar size yard but a poor strike rate in comparison. He wouldn't have the backing of those two

Gordon Elliot houses more horses than anyone by some way and his strike rate is poor. Excluding Perth but that to me like Jonjo is down to a lack of quality horses.

Neither seem to have the same control Nicky or PN have on what ends up in their yards.

At the end of the Day Mullins has more horses than PN and Nicky but less than Gordon Elliot and he outdoes them all
 
I think most Irish trainers just bide their time with their hurdlers until they eventually send them chasing, hence many of them appear to have better records with their chasers.
 
You can only expand with the correct infrastructure and people. You need multiple yards to ensure infection isnt spread, multiple top ranking stable managers, and load of horse boxes!
 
De'Bromhead definitely prefers fences and he proved that way back. Sizing Europe had the Champion Hurdle won when he pulled a muscle in his back the year Katchit won. Most would have given him another go but he sent his straight over fences.

I don't think he's had a runner in the Champion Hurdle or the World Hurdle for years bar Identity Thief and he's already gone chasing. He has hundreds of runners over hurdles but you'd go skint backing them
 
I've often thought the same topic Nick.

Would I rather have my horse as a priority with a lesser known or another cog for. WPM et al.

If the horse was below 169 level I'd prefer it to be trained in isolation by a smaller trainer.

if I was lucky enough to be Rich Ricci and have a bunch of 170 horses, I'd most certainly utilise WPM
 
Tanlic said:
De'Bromhead definitely prefers fences and he proved that way back. Sizing Europe had the Champion Hurdle won when he pulled a muscle in his back the year Katchit won. Most would have given him another go but he sent his straight over fences.

I don't think he's had a runner in the Champion Hurdle or the World Hurdle for years bar Identity Thief and he's already gone chasing. He has hundreds of runners over hurdles but you'd go skint backing them
Click to expand...


When you say Sizing Europe went straight over fences you mean after the best part of 15 months where he ran over hurdles and was declared a non runner on the morning of the Champion Hurdle due to travel sickness.Apart from that you are factually correct.
 
I do remember him struggling for a long time trying to get him right then at the first sign of him coming back much to my disappointment he switched him to fences. Hands held high it turned out to be a good idea and he did well with the horse who stole the show at Cheltenham 2011 when winning the QMCC.

But, I also remember him getting more than his fair share of flak for running him over 3 miles, a trip he clearly didn't get. It was never more obvious when he looked all over the winner only to stop like shot to be caught close home by the plodder Quito De La Roque. What does 'Enery do runs him over the trip again and gets beaten again for the 4th time.
 
Mr Potts had a dream Champion Hurdle,Champion Chase as a novice and Gold Cup.He was always in the background trying to make him into a Gold Cup horse -fact.
 
Yes totally agree that yards get too big. I worked for a big Flat yard back in the Early 90s and we had 150 in with another 50 waiting to come in. The trainer couldn't be bothered with half of them. There were some lovely horses that never remotely reached their full potential - if it wasn't at least a Listed winner or a handicap plot he wasn't interested. We had a load of fillies that never saw a racecourse while I was there. I'd like to see a maximum number imposed! But then I'd be all for limiting stallion books too!
 
With you there Jinnyj !
Having the correct infrastructure , staff and temperament to go with it a must.
Stables do expand too quickly; how Gordon Elliot does it is beyond me.
Fair does to him but anyone remember a trainer having eleven declared for any race, ever ? Max field 25 by the way.
M C Pipe went close in a few Cheltenham handicaps but eleven ?
 
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He has 57 horses declared for tomorrow and Sunday, not counting two probable non-runners.
 
Kim Bailey is about to introduce a new innovation, with 24/7 webcams situated beside and at the top of his gallops so that owners can watch their horses on the gallops in real time from anywhere in the world. Would attract a few owners I imagine.
 
The four richest handicap chases of the season so far in Ireland have all been won by Gigginstown and Elliott.

Galway Plate Lord Scoundrel
Kerry National Wrath of Titans
Munster National Tiger Roll
Troytown Empire of Dirt
 
chroniclandlord said:
The four richest handicap chases of the season so far in Ireland have all been won by Gigginstown and Elliott.

Galway Plate Lord Scoundrel
Kerry National Wrath of Titans
Munster National Tiger Roll
Troytown Empire of Dirt
Click to expand...

Gordon keen to pay tribute to the work done by Colm Murphy on the latter
 
Ok, so six winners at Navan today but what about the strike rate? :ninja:
 
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