Books To Recommend ?

I haven't read that book HS, sounds like my sort of thing though!

As you say, this period (and those following and preceding it) are great entertainment - full of violence, scandal, all sorts!
 
I have just finished a book by Antoinette May - Claudia, Daughter of Rome. It was very, very good - it is a fictional account of Claudia, wife of Pontius Pilate, thought to have been Claudia Procula.

Mind you, the devout amongst us wouldn't approve of the end of the book - it touches on the story of Jesus' crucifixion and gets a tad blasphemous in places!

A very good book though and one which I would recommend.
 
This week, I am mostly be reading "The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner" by James Hogg. And my head hurts!
 
Here comes a very elitist posting, so spank if you must. I deserve it.

My brother and I were on a train recently and a young lady opposite was reading some novel 'written' by Jordan. After she left the train we had a debate as to whether reading was good in itself no matter what the book, or whether reading that book or books like them was actually regressive for people's development.

Opinions?

(Latest books)

Mister Pip, by Lloyd Evans is good for the first 75%.
I read 3 of Ian Rankins Rebus books and they went down well.
 
Tim Pat Coogan's book is probably considered the definitive

I got some of the way through one of his books on something or other and it was absolute drivel. Like reading someone who loves the sound of his own voice..if that makes sense

Two books im enjoying big time

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nixon-Kissinger-Pa...14901328&sr=8-4

Unlike TIm Prat, Robert Dalleck is a informed and balanced writer with genuine wit. There isnt a wasted word on what was a fascinating period of history dominated by two somewhat frightening characters

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crisis-What-Britai...14901397&sr=1-1

Wonderful and entertaining analysis of the forgotten decade
 
I can thoroughly recommend all of Christopher Brookmyre's output. They are all essentially crime stories, but are full of humour, and his command of narrative is second-to-none.
 
Deep-fried-Mars-bar-eating-commies aside, clivex - his stuff is top-notch.

If you do fancy reading him, then I recommend you start with 'Quite Ugly One Morning' and take it from there, as there is a loose chronological thread through most (though not all) of the books, in terms of introduction of characters.
 
Ok.....

Might just do that

I dont work my way through many novelists but this is superb.... Somehow i think it would be up your street Grass. (i am being serious now). Impossible to put down> disturbing as well as very black humour.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engleby-Sebastian-...14906270&sr=1-2

On crime, theres a new James lee Burke out...which is always ood.

and i think theres a new William Trevor collection. Hes a master
 
I had wondered about that book until reading the reviews which were not good

I gather that there was an attempt to bracket Churchill and Hitler as one and the same? And it is very anti Churchill (english?) in its tone too which was also pro appeasment? Or at least neutrality?

The idea that a pacific response was the best way to counter hitler (which appears to be the tone of the book) is frankly bizarre.

Im not sure i can be bothered to start from that point. It is one of the UK's greatest acheivements to stand up (and we could have easily gone for the morally bankrupt neutrality/quiet life...the offer was on the table enough times and Hitler was very wary of the British) against the Nazis

Not too many serious historians (and Baker isnt one IMO) would query the idea that Churchill, for all his faults, was a huge factor in the ultimate defeat of one of the most despicable regimes the world has seen.
 
I would suggest you read it Clivex and decide for yourself.

It does show that Churchill was an obsessive war monger, hell bent on taking aerial war to the civilian hearts of the enemy. It has never been in any doubt that he did provoke the Germans into bombing British cities but this has long been accepted as a painful necessity in winning the Battle Of Britain.

Alarmingly it does depict Churchill and Roosevelt as worryingly anti-semitic, and presents a very worrying theory that the Holocaust was brought about by the refusal of the UK and USA to deal with the German desire to expel Jews from their territory.

Also, Churchill's insistence on blockading occupied Europe brought about far greater hunger and starvation than was necessary.

As I said read it for yourself before pre-judging.
 
Alarmingly it does depict Churchill and Roosevelt as worryingly anti-semitic, and presents a very worrying theory that the Holocaust was brought about by the refusal of the UK and USA to deal with the German desire to expel Jews from their territory.

Is this serious put forward in the book?

http://www.amazon.com/Churchill-Jews-Friendship-Martin-Gilbert/dp/0805078800

From a serious histiorian

Casual throw away remarks were commonplace at that time. He certainly went too far but I would hardly say that his attitudes had parrallels with Hitler

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/churchill_holocaust_01.shtml

The second part of the para, implicitly blaming Britain and the US for the holocaust, is offensive.

If thats the twisted logic that this book puts forward, then i wont touch it with a bargepole
 
I would suggest you read it Clivex and decide for yourself.

It does show that Churchill was an obsessive war monger, hell bent on taking aerial war to the civilian hearts of the enemy. It has never been in any doubt that he did provoke the Germans into bombing British cities but this has long been accepted as a painful necessity in winning the Battle Of Britain.

Alarmingly it does depict Churchill and Roosevelt as worryingly anti-semitic, and presents a very worrying theory that the Holocaust was brought about by the refusal of the UK and USA to deal with the German desire to expel Jews from their territory.

Also, Churchill's insistence on blockading occupied Europe brought about far greater hunger and starvation than was necessary.

As I said read it for yourself before pre-judging.


It's rare enough, but I agree with clivex.

If the examples that you give are representative of the book as a whole, then I also do not wish to read it.

I have never encountered the phrase anywhere, that Churchill provoked the Germans into bombing German cities. Unless of course, the author means that by defending themselves during the bombing of airfields, the British (Churchill) somehow provoked the Germans into switching targets. The initial reasoning behind bombing London being, as intercepted by ULTRA, an instruction from Goering to provoke the British fighters into a mass clash in which they could be destroyed, thus creating a condition under which Operation Sea Lion could proceed.

The second assertion that UK and USA were responsible for provoking the Holocaust is equally errant nonsense. The Final Solution is well documented as being decided upon in early 1942 (as backed up by the testimony of Goering at Nuremberg). At this time both countries were at war with Germany, indeed Germany declared war on the USA (Presumably Roosevelt's anti-semitism forced Hitler to do this as well). The exodus of Jews from Germany had ended on any great scale 2 years previously. No nation state with a modicum of sense would have allowed any mass exodus from a hostile nation to continue under such circumstances.

For those unfamiliar with the prevalence of anti-semitism in this era, I suggest reading the novel The 39 Steps by John Buchan for a small insight.

Lastly, the suggestion that the blockade of occupied Europe caused greater suffering than necessary is laughable. Had no blockade existed, do we really believe that occupied allied countries would have benefitted? Given that direct orders were given that all resources of any kind from occupied territories should be directed towards the Reich with only that which was not required being left, I would contest that any loosening of the blockade would simply have resulted in an extension of the suffering of occupied Europe by making further resources available to the Germans.

As for taking aerial war to the heart of the enemy. Let's not forget that this was a war in which the bombing of civilian populations was declared acceptable behaviour in 1940 in Rotterdam, by the Germans.



I would recommend that before anyone reads this sensationalist tosh by an author who is oh so very clearly trying to present an "alternative" view of history in a bid to shift copies, that they read Nuremberg: Evil On Trial by David Owen. It is a balanced book, consisting of transcripts from the trial, defendants and prosecutors, put together with minimal narrative in a surprisingly readable manner. Despite the horrific content.
 
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Good stuff simmo (rare enough i would say that too...)

No wonder the book has been ridiculed by so many...

I think its probable that the author set out with an agenda, which is very different to a perspective (which i have no problem with). And hes possibly worked out his market...
 
I've read several books on WWII which present opinions (or an agenda if you like)backed up with facts and the problem that I have with every single one of them is that they all use facts which are incorrect, presented in a plausible fashion, to back up their arguments.
 
Perhaps not as incompetently in this case though? Unless you read David irving ....

The best writer on Hitler and nazism for me (and ill admit ive not read an enormous amount...) is Ian Kershaw
 
I didn't want to give this away but the book is not wriotten in narrative form. It is a collection of quotations taken from leading polictians, military figures and members of the public whose lives were touched by the war.

You take from this what you wish. My interpretation is that the USA and UK made it extremely difficuly for Jews to flee the occupied territories. The German hands were forced by the allies to seach for a "final solution". One cannot condone what the Germans did, however the result of World War Two was mass migration of the surviving continental European Jews to a new homeland - something the Germans were promoting (Madagascar among the suggested locations). Perhaps if the USA and UK were more active in searching for ways of accomodating the persecuted Jews rather than bombing the German population to smithereens then perhaps the path for European Jewry may have taken a less bloodthirsty route.

As regards the effect of the economic blockade on innocent civilians caught up in the war, I again suggest you read the book.

Churchill is depicted as "anti-Hitler" before WW2 compared with the "appeaser" Chamberlain. The book contains pre-war quotes from Churchill which are extremely positive about "Herr Hitler".

Back to the bombing. The bombing of Coventry (and its abcient cathedral) is one example in the book. The British authorities knew of the intention to launch a "massive" attack on Coventry due to its strategic importantce some 30 hourse prior to the attack. The local air raid wardens were told of this 20 minutes before the attack. As a result they had little time to evacuate the population into air raid shelters - 500 people were killed.

The RAF first bombed German civilian targets on 15/16 May 1940. The bombings caused terror among the German civilian populus. Germany did not bomb British mainland targets until 6 weeks after vicroty in France. The Germans concentrated their campaigns against large industrial complexes. In Feb 1942 (the book stops about then) Directive No. 22 was issued to Bomber Command with Churchill's blessing - bombing was to be "focused on the morale of the enemy civil population and in particular of the industrial workers." Factories were no longer targets.

I repeat this is not a narrative, full of the authors opinions - it is 470 pages of contemporaneous first hand accounts. If both of you are not prepared to challenge your own views on on the war and are so closed minded as to not to want to consider a modern version of events, then so be it. This wouldn't be Clivex's first display on here of relying on second hand media reporting to form his opinions.
 
so be it then!

The first point you mention is clearly tosh :). It's like suggesting that Turkey and the rest of the world is responsible for Saddam Hussein's massacres of Kurds because they didn't allow them to set up their own homeland.

Churchill was one of many prominent British politicians and individuals who made admiring noises about Hitler prior to the war. That didn't stop them fighting him.

The Coventry situation is well known, as is the reason for it. The reason is valid in my eyes (to prevent disclosure of the existence of the Allies ability to read German Enigma traffic). A tragic but necessary sacrifice considering the hugely valuable benefit from it later in the war in all theatres of the war. ULTRA was protected at all times throughout the war, to the extent that they refused to bomb convoys in the Mediterranean until they had been "spotted" by a 'plane or ship prior to any attack despite knowing precise details of it. Had they revealed it by protecting Coventry in that fashion they would possibly have had no such details in the first place. And where would that have ended up?

The British were unable to mount an air attack on Germany on any great scale until the US joined the war, when the strategic decision was made to use the better protected US bombers by daylight and the RAF by night. Strangely enough, the US were given the task of bombing factories and the RAF the task of area bombing. (Because the US could see what they were doing, not because they were in any way more squeamish about bombing civilian populations). I have no doubt that these raids and earlier raids in smaller numbers were just as terrifying as the German raids on civilian populations which had been carried out wherever possible since Guernica. (Let's not forget that they deliberately bombed Rotterdam's civilian population on 14th May 1940 simply because the Dutch refused to surrender the city to besieging forces - date ringing any bells?:confused:). To suggest that they focussed their attacks on industry is quite simply erroneous. The Germans can't see in the dark any better than Britons. (see also Baedeker raids). I would add to that the British extermination of civilians at Dresden was inexcusable and unnecessary.

As I say, books with an agenda such as these are to be avoided as there are far too many things presented as "facts" which are clearly nothing of the sort.
 
Some further interesting information quoted from the Oxford Companion to the Second World War, not all of which supports my argument.....

On the question of the USA and UK's hands being less than clean with regard to Jews:

"Of Germany's half million Jews in 1933, more than half had emigrated by 1938. Of these, more than 100,000 found refuge in the USA....52,000 in the UK."

"More than 100,000 of Austria's 160,000 Jews emigrated; most of them to the UK, the USA and Palestine"

Hardly figures which back up the suggestion put forward in your book, I would have thought?


Here's what it says on Coventry......

"ULTRA intelligence and prisoner-of-war information forewarned the British of a major Luftwaffe operation against a number of cities...... but the information was not correlated and there were also indications that the targets might be in London and the South Of England. In any case, it was impossible to tell which would be attacked first and the ENIGMA signals giving their direction to the stations emitting them were not broken in time. By 1500 on the day of the raid the (directional navigation) beams were found to intersect over Coventry, but ECMs failed to work. The fact that Coventry was to be the target that night was passed on to fighter command but British counter-measures proved ineffective.
This failure probably hastened the departure of Dowding.....and from it grew the myth that Coventry was left to the mercy of the Luftwaffe in order to protect the secret of ULTRA"

On Rotterdam.....

"The raid ended the British policy of not bombing Germany for the Allies had threatened Germany with retaliation if it bombed civilian targets and 15th May the first RAF raid on the Ruhr was launched..."

On night bombing as employed by the RAF...

"The cover of darkness, which afforded the bombers a substantial degree of protection, also prevented the crews from seeing their targets, or indeed, for the greater part, getting anywhere near them".

"It became clear from the Butt Report that the smallest targets which were operationally feasible at night....were whole towns."
 
Simmo, I am unaware of the author having any agenda. As I said before, it is an amalgam of quotations. When I began the book I thought it was the intro, but as it went on I realised the whole book is simply quotes.

Probably a 3rd of the whole book is made up of source credits, and the only commentary by the author comes in the final two pages of the book.

Victorious regimes will always completely blacken the reputations of the defeated nations, and rewrite their own history in order to create heroes of their leaders. In creating "heroes" it is necessary to remove certain, negative, facts in order to enhance the myth.

All of the quotes in this book pre-date 1942, which is all the more alarming. It is clear Churchill was hell bent on testing his theories on aerial bombardment (in particular dimishing the resolve of the civilian population such that they revolt against their leader) even before the war began.

The problem with massive aerial assaults in the 1940s was that "precision" bombing was a complete myth. The nearest you got to such a thing was via dive bombing, not 1,000 bomber raids.

As such, the effectiveness of the bombing campaigns over Germany have always been called into question. Moreover, any belief Churchill had that they would weaken the resolve of the German peoples and inspire revolt was a fantasy. They quite obviously hardened the resolve.

From a Jewish perspective the one place aerial bombing could have achieved something positive would have been to target the means of genocide - but Churchill never ordered his aircraft to bomb the railroads that fed the death camps.

As for your first paragraph, let me draw a comparison. If a child is being physically abused by its parents and the authorities stand by and watch without taking the child into care, is the state in part culpabale? Most people will agree they are. Nobody is removing blame from the Nazis for the holocaust, however the allies certainly did not take the sort of remedial action that may have prevented the annihilation of the Jews - e.g. a negotiated peace in 1940, bombing the means to create genocide, accepting evacuees into their countries.

The figures you cite to make the US and UK appear Jew-friendly - they are age old, and conveniently get Ike and Churchill off the hook. They only deal with a relatively small percentage of Jews living in occupied Europe. So 152,000 Jews got out - what about the other 6 million?

Nobody can say for certain if a negotiated peace in 1940 would have prevented the extermination of 6 million Jews, but it would have been worth a try, and would have also saved the lifes of millions of German and British urban civilians too.

As for Churchills post war reputation immediately after WW2 - in 1945 he was booed and heckled at Walthamstow Stadium, he was stoned at Ladbroke Grove. In the General election that year Labour won in a landslide - hardly the actions of a populus who thanked him for the wartime burden he forced them to carry.

Suggest you read the book, then at least you can make a personal and informed critique on this site.
 
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