Unless your bringing a maiden debutante what's the point. Good trainers will be heard quite often when asked what instructions they are giving the jock that they leave it to him. If the horse has some idiosyncratic tendencies like jinking when being whipped or is afraid to go thru a gap, or absolutely must be on the front end then by all means let the jockey know. The classic is the one where the owner is telling the jockey to lay up in 3rd or 4th position while every other owner in the race is telling the jockey the same thing.
Buick
- Thread starter sunybay
- Start date
Unless your bringing a maiden debutante what's the point. Good trainers will be heard quite often when asked what instructions they are giving the jock that they leave it to him. If the horse has some idiosyncratic tendencies like jinking when being whipped or is afraid to go thru a gap, or absolutely must be on the front end then by all means let the jockey know. The classic is the one where the owner is telling the jockey to lay up in 3rd or 4th position while every other owner in the race is telling the jockey the same thing.
But the instructions given for most will be taking into account the expected pace of the race, front runners, finishers, alot goes into it. How do you know the jockey has spent the time previewing the race? The decision to chase a fast pace might have been taken into account and what the horse required. The argument you seem to be advocating with experience as well is fraught with dangers just because a jockey has experience with pace doesn't mean they know the horse best surely?
EC1
On a break
so you agree that when a jockey is told to hold up a horse he should do that no matter how fast they go..likewise..when he is told to lead he makes sure he rides like hell to head the other front runners...in both cases the horse's chance will have been seriously compromised. in both those instances would you then blame the jockey when your horse lost?
Is there any way the sport could be run without owners? Nationlise it or something?
Trainers get the horses running. Jockeys ride them. Punters keep the money flowing and make the atmosphere
Owners moan
Lets get rid of them. They stand around with faces like a bulldog licking **** off a nettle and slag off everybody and everything whilst thinking they are actually of some importance. And when they get a winner they waste valuable Tv time with their smelly camel coats, drink sodden verbal clueless drivel and fat ugly wives giggling and sweating as if someones got their hand between their wobbly cheeks
Trainers get the horses running. Jockeys ride them. Punters keep the money flowing and make the atmosphere
Owners moan
Lets get rid of them. They stand around with faces like a bulldog licking **** off a nettle and slag off everybody and everything whilst thinking they are actually of some importance. And when they get a winner they waste valuable Tv time with their smelly camel coats, drink sodden verbal clueless drivel and fat ugly wives giggling and sweating as if someones got their hand between their wobbly cheeks
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EC1
On a break
it doesn't look like Chris looked at the pace of that race..plenty of front pace runners in it..Mizbah..leads at 10f...Poetic Lord..leads at 10f...Cape Explorer leads at 10f
is asking a jock to put a horse to be in the worst place in a race very good tactics do you think?
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I never said it was and actually agreed with the initial points made. The point I was making was ultimately that if the owner gives instructions then it is more than reasonable to expect them to be followed regardless. Put another way just because the pace in that race was suicidal do you know for a fact the instructions given wouldn't have worked for the horse? Its unquantifiable, its unknown so I'd say Chris is entitled to be annoyed. Would i moan if a jockey had followed my instructions and it ruined the horses chances, NO would be my balls up.
I've looked at said race a few times just to see for myself. Your statement that Buick went handy for 1f then broke his jaw reigned him back to nearly last before getting stuck behind horses and then hit him 5 times in the space of ten yards and gave up and stood up on him is not in the least borne out by what I see. From a wide draw he got into a good position briefly pulling on the reins as they swept around the first turn but never worse then 5th, 6th all the way into the straight where he simply did not have what it takes.
This horse was running in a 0-80 handicap for the first time since Feb 2009. The horse's best form was probably winning off 72 in July of 08 or it could be argued off of 71 in a 0-95 nursery in 07. The next time this horse was winning was in a 0-60 handicap Jan 2010. That's basically where it has plied its trade ever since.
Has run into a rich vein of form at that level in the middle of 2012, after a seven month break where it seemingly has been running every week or so. Twice in June four times in July and three times in August and aforementioned race yesterday. The highlight being a win in a 0-65 lady's amateur race off top weight. The race after that a 0-65 race at Bath reads: took keen hold, led 7f out, soon clear, joined 2f out, headed well over 1f out, weakened final furlong (op 11-2) That was on 23rd of August. This horse is seven and hardly open to improvement after 61 runs. On the face of it I'd say it has been campaigned very well these last two months. Yesterday the horse was being asked to do something it cannot do anymore in the toughest race it has seen in four years. If Buick had followed orders to the tee he'd have been burned off before the final bend. Be glad he eased the horse when he did it might save it for the next races in lesser grade.
I don't own this horse but that is what I see here. Sometimes owners can suffer from grand delusions. I know I've been there.
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Is it not also in the jockey's interest to win the race if possible? After all he benefits as well. So he goes against instructions because the race plays out completely differently and he wins. That does happen more frequently than many owners might want to admit. Is there any moaning then?
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EC1
On a break
and do you think that over a series of races asking a jockey to get on a suicidal pace or sit back off a soft one will be a successful ploy?..its not an unknown because its how energy is distributed..and its a known that even distribution is the best use of energy
using the..it might have still won argument doesn't cut it for me because the results show that in both scenarios those in the wrong place generally lose
lets say the horse had won...i wonder what the opinion of Buick would have been then..and looking at the pre race pace make up and the final result he did the right thing in trying to keep away from the strong pace up front
This is an argument that could go around in circles regarding if the jockey gets it right or not.
You're points are valid but my major point here is at the end of the day it is the owners rights to have his instructions followed rightly or wrongly. They buy the horse, pay the bills, pay the travel and pay for the jockey its their money. If they want to burn it then down to them (although burning money is technically illegal).
When you spend money on anything say for example a bet even if it is on a 100/1 that has no chance it is your right to do so as it is your decision and your money that's where I'm coming from.
racehorse0_3
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2012
- Messages
- 4
I had type a lot more but was timed out, so did not re-type all, we said to the Jockey ride him as you find him as he was an utter rogue, we are realist's after all and it was wolverhampton! we know you can't win them all, but the best you can expect is the jockey you are PAYING a fee to will at least Listen to you, and if they ride to orders and it does not work out, you now at least they tried, at the end of the day they are not world beater's but its the enjoyment of racing, but if they don't then it's money wasted.
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racehorse0_3
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2012
- Messages
- 4
And at the end of the day it might be the first time the Jockey has sat on the horse, who knows it better???
EC1
On a break
aaah..diddums
not like you to post negatively towards me old chap :lol:
just off for a jog past the gasworks..catch you later
I don't think orders should be followed to the letter. They should be used as a guide and some form of discretion is required. But to say that owners should not be able to tell their rider what to do is rubbish. You can use whatever analogy you want about dry cleaners or binmen or bankers. It doesn't matter. The owner and trainer should have their instructions followed unless there are strong mitigating circumstances. For example, if the trainer/owner says keep them up with the pace, and three of them tear off in front, then you should lie as close to the three as you feel is neccessary.......but not last!! I'm with Kauto on this. If the mistake is the owners or trainers then so be it. To say "It's been my experience that more often than not owners who want to burden the jockey down with riding instructions probably are successful in other wakes of life and think they can carry that over into horse racing as an owner. Usually an ego thing." may be your experiecne but is a huge stereotype. Sometimes owners do actually have good ideas, particularly the ones that have some knowledge of racing rather than it being just a bit of an interest.
aaah..diddums
not like you to post negatively towards me old chap :lol:
just off for a jog past the gasworks..catch you later
How many times have you left the forum in the last 18 months -2 or 3,maybe I missed one and it's 4.
An owner giving his gut reaction to a bad ride is priceless-if you didn't have a chip on your shoulder you might be able to see that.
Just off to have a few cold ones.
trudij
Senior Jockey
Im with Cantoris and Kauto (and no doubt some others!) with a certain amount of discresion you want a job done how you want it done.... and if we want analagies - if i ask a plumber to change a washer and he puts a whole new tap on - yes Im going to be pissed off unless he comes back with a bloody good reason....
Ive given instructions to jockeys before, and on a few occasions they have been ignored (to my amusement in one case - "oooh Barry, youre about to find out why we said DONT hit him" "why are you pulling up there, you'll never get him back...oh,hang on - he hasnt pulled up deliberately,the bugger has refused to go anywhere else"
) and also had a jockey ingore my instructions (which werent difficult) AND the instructions of the jockey who usually rode the horse (who had been injured in the first race and was stood down for the rest of the day) the instructions from the yard (ie trainer via me!) were "pop him out in front on the outside, let him bowl, dont worry if they want to go fast - he stays forever and wont let you down jumping" and from the usual jockey "listen to trudes, she rides him and knows him inside out, hes a cracking horse,stays forever - perfect race for him"
Result? Jockey didnt even TRY to do what we said. jumps him off in mid-div, on the inside and gets brought down at the 5th (i think) in a horrible,horrible winding fall. Was I furious? oh yes. Was the usual jockey? they had to seperate them in the weighing room. Trainer? Hell yeah.... now whatever else you like to think about instructions having to change(which we totally understand!),one thing is certain - you cant get brought down if theres nothing in front of you.....
Did we use that jockey again?? what do you think.... was an interesting hour for him at Hereford two days later when he came to us for some medical treatment and I was in the lorry....
Im very much in the camp of actually, yes - jockeys are there to do a job and are employed by whoever is paying their fee for that race (or their representative). Owners should be (and mostly are in my experience) big enough to know that if they are going to give orders, not only do they sometimes have to become changed mid race, but if the jockey has done as asked and things go wrong its their fault.
Ive given instructions to jockeys before, and on a few occasions they have been ignored (to my amusement in one case - "oooh Barry, youre about to find out why we said DONT hit him" "why are you pulling up there, you'll never get him back...oh,hang on - he hasnt pulled up deliberately,the bugger has refused to go anywhere else"
) and also had a jockey ingore my instructions (which werent difficult) AND the instructions of the jockey who usually rode the horse (who had been injured in the first race and was stood down for the rest of the day) the instructions from the yard (ie trainer via me!) were "pop him out in front on the outside, let him bowl, dont worry if they want to go fast - he stays forever and wont let you down jumping" and from the usual jockey "listen to trudes, she rides him and knows him inside out, hes a cracking horse,stays forever - perfect race for him" Result? Jockey didnt even TRY to do what we said. jumps him off in mid-div, on the inside and gets brought down at the 5th (i think) in a horrible,horrible winding fall. Was I furious? oh yes. Was the usual jockey? they had to seperate them in the weighing room. Trainer? Hell yeah.... now whatever else you like to think about instructions having to change(which we totally understand!),one thing is certain - you cant get brought down if theres nothing in front of you.....
Did we use that jockey again?? what do you think.... was an interesting hour for him at Hereford two days later when he came to us for some medical treatment and I was in the lorry....
Im very much in the camp of actually, yes - jockeys are there to do a job and are employed by whoever is paying their fee for that race (or their representative). Owners should be (and mostly are in my experience) big enough to know that if they are going to give orders, not only do they sometimes have to become changed mid race, but if the jockey has done as asked and things go wrong its their fault.
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gigilo
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 9,702
I get the point of riding to orders etc,etc but as far as know no fears run couldn't possibly win that race running handier anyway,the progressive cape explorer was the only one near the pace and that got beat 3 1/4ls and has run a brilliant race to get that close off a suicidal pace!!The race was over 2 seconds quicker than labarintos earlier on the card,looked in prime positon if it was going to pick up!!If it needs to lead or dominate made little difference anyway as that wouldv'e been impossible!Thats from a form perspective and looking at future horses to take from the race,cape explorer!
Gigilo that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
However Know No Fear is keen going, but if he isn't in daylight he downs tools and gives up. You also can't fight him as he gets sour. You look at the pace he showed at Bath when allowed to lead 7f out, he was a 6f winner and has been winning over 7f, so I don't buy for one minute he isn't quick enough to lead up over 10f !!
The real honest face was, the horse likes to be handy and take it up early and he has one gear and keeps going at it, if you ride him from behind he's laboured and fails to pick up. Since we realised he likes to be ridden forcefully the horse has improved from a mark of 50 on turf this season to 71, notching 3 wins and many places along the way. The horse until Bath had gone 16 runs without being out the first 4 and defied numerous hikes by the grader.
At Bath, Semira got it right, she had the field all in trouble and was 5L clear 3f out, but instead of kicking she sat there through inexperience and sadly she didn't ask him to pick up again until they got to her girths when everything was in top stride and she wasn't. it was a lesson learned for her.
I could have used Semira or Leonna on Saturday but I was worried he would be too keen for them early, so the thoughts of putting Buick on were he's brilliant from the front, his orders were very simple.
William unless he is handy and in daylight he gives up, you need to bounce him out and sit 2nd or 3rd, then after 2 or 3f, let him move to the lead, he'll carry you forward and then you want to step it up between the 5 and the 6, and then kick again at the 3, I'll rather him clear weakening then you dropping him out, as if he drops out he'll give up and won't do a tap for you.
William went handy for all of 1f, then he started wrestling the horse, fighting him, took him in behind horses, still keen he let others going on still fighting him. 6f out, instead of making any move, he continued to sit against him and dropped him even further back. When the race finally quickened 3.5f out, the horse had 2 behind him and Buick pushed him for 100yards, before giving him 5 cracks of the whip within 50yrds then stood up on him and eased him right down.
For one he completely went against what he was told to do, secondly why would you only push a horse for a short space of time, and then hit it simultaneously for no reason, he was 15L behind at the time !! and then all but pulled the horse up for no reason.
Actually the reason was he thought he knew better about the horse.
When he came in he was like, well they went quick so I let them go and he was too keen he needs to learn to settle (needs to learn when he's been winning and placing consistently and that's him), then he just dropped the bridle on me (yes like you were told he would if you held him up). So I eased him down as had no chance.
I turned to him and said well perhaps if you done what you were told you might have got more out of him, and another thing, when you speak to your agent later on can you pass something on to him, don't ever ring me again offering your services, cause you've pretty much defrauded £120 there, I would have got a better ride from someone whose never sat on a racehorse before.
He just walked off.
One thing I can't stand in a jockey is when they think they know better and disobey orders and don't have the front to come him and actually say the truth, sorry I fucked up. When they do that you can forgive them and probably use them again, but when they come in blaming the horse, for their inability to listen that really gets my blood up.
I agree Buick can be very good when he wants to be, but would I ever use him again, would I ****.
However Know No Fear is keen going, but if he isn't in daylight he downs tools and gives up. You also can't fight him as he gets sour. You look at the pace he showed at Bath when allowed to lead 7f out, he was a 6f winner and has been winning over 7f, so I don't buy for one minute he isn't quick enough to lead up over 10f !!
The real honest face was, the horse likes to be handy and take it up early and he has one gear and keeps going at it, if you ride him from behind he's laboured and fails to pick up. Since we realised he likes to be ridden forcefully the horse has improved from a mark of 50 on turf this season to 71, notching 3 wins and many places along the way. The horse until Bath had gone 16 runs without being out the first 4 and defied numerous hikes by the grader.
At Bath, Semira got it right, she had the field all in trouble and was 5L clear 3f out, but instead of kicking she sat there through inexperience and sadly she didn't ask him to pick up again until they got to her girths when everything was in top stride and she wasn't. it was a lesson learned for her.
I could have used Semira or Leonna on Saturday but I was worried he would be too keen for them early, so the thoughts of putting Buick on were he's brilliant from the front, his orders were very simple.
William unless he is handy and in daylight he gives up, you need to bounce him out and sit 2nd or 3rd, then after 2 or 3f, let him move to the lead, he'll carry you forward and then you want to step it up between the 5 and the 6, and then kick again at the 3, I'll rather him clear weakening then you dropping him out, as if he drops out he'll give up and won't do a tap for you.
William went handy for all of 1f, then he started wrestling the horse, fighting him, took him in behind horses, still keen he let others going on still fighting him. 6f out, instead of making any move, he continued to sit against him and dropped him even further back. When the race finally quickened 3.5f out, the horse had 2 behind him and Buick pushed him for 100yards, before giving him 5 cracks of the whip within 50yrds then stood up on him and eased him right down.
For one he completely went against what he was told to do, secondly why would you only push a horse for a short space of time, and then hit it simultaneously for no reason, he was 15L behind at the time !! and then all but pulled the horse up for no reason.
Actually the reason was he thought he knew better about the horse.
When he came in he was like, well they went quick so I let them go and he was too keen he needs to learn to settle (needs to learn when he's been winning and placing consistently and that's him), then he just dropped the bridle on me (yes like you were told he would if you held him up). So I eased him down as had no chance.
I turned to him and said well perhaps if you done what you were told you might have got more out of him, and another thing, when you speak to your agent later on can you pass something on to him, don't ever ring me again offering your services, cause you've pretty much defrauded £120 there, I would have got a better ride from someone whose never sat on a racehorse before.
He just walked off.
One thing I can't stand in a jockey is when they think they know better and disobey orders and don't have the front to come him and actually say the truth, sorry I fucked up. When they do that you can forgive them and probably use them again, but when they come in blaming the horse, for their inability to listen that really gets my blood up.
I agree Buick can be very good when he wants to be, but would I ever use him again, would I ****.
rorydelargy
At the Start
Bar the Bull
At the Start
I would have thought that the reason you pay for a top jockey is that he has the ability to think on his feet and adapt to the situation.
rorydelargy
At the Start
On a serious note, both points are valid here - I see why Chris is annoyed, as Know No Fear has only one way of going, and riding him like any other horse wasn't going to be effective. I also agree with Gigilo and others that with Cape Explorer desperate to lead, and others keen to stop him having an easy time of things, the pace was clearly too fast, and had Buick insisted in trying to get KNF closer to it, he'd have had little chance. On that subject, I'd definitely want to keep Cape Explorer on side, because the way he rallied having done far too much suggests he's way ahead of his mark. I'm sure the handicapper will decide that Know No Fear is better dropped a pound or 2 on that effort, and he'll surely have better claims in future trying to boss exposed/inferior rivals than the better class horse he was against on Saturday.
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Buick needs to learn from Ruby who will play the owners so he keeps the ride. First thing he does is blame himself. If you blame the horse, its like kicking the owners child. You will never win. First thing Ruby said to us when he was beaten in a Christmas hurdle having not gone quick enough in front was "that was my fault, I won't do that again in the Irish Champion". So already he's put himself on the horse in the next race and has been the "big man" and apologised. It never became an issue because he defused it straight away. Barry Cash on the other hand came in after Aintree and said "horse didn't come up for me" rather than say they had a difference of opinion and he could have done things differently. He might have kept the ride for a while longer.
PS the Ruby example is not the only one where he has offered his apologies first in order to keep the ride.
You could argue that the owner should tell the jock up front that they want the instructions followed to the letter regardless of circumstance or that the Jock should tell the owners in advance that he is going to change tactics to suit the race. Ultimately i'm not sure if either of these happened but personally I would be telling the jock the horses key characteristics so he knows the horses preferred running style and then leaving it up to him.
At work I would not employ a specialist consultant then tell them what to do. It would make no sense to me.
At work I would not employ a specialist consultant then tell them what to do. It would make no sense to me.