Captured Sailors
- Thread starter Warbler
- Start date
A
Ardross
Guest
When have I ever suggested that ?
I have no trouble with others criticising my criticisms of jockeys.
I do have a problem with armchair critics of people who have been held as hostages when what is implicit in that criticism is that they are cowards . The analogy is a worthless one as the two situations are incomparable.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 25,457
I think I'll join the forces, see if I can get myself posted to somewhere sunny and maybe taken captive. Plenty to eat & drink, a new suit for halloween and a wee game of pingpong, not to mention a bit of neck flicking. Then get some VIP treatment on the way home and sell my story for enough to retire on.
After that, a few appearances on 'I'm A Celebrity Get Me Back There', a few chat shows, an autobiography on how I felt about selling my story...
Made for life.
After that, a few appearances on 'I'm A Celebrity Get Me Back There', a few chat shows, an autobiography on how I felt about selling my story...
Made for life.
Ardross, you are truly amazing. Have you considered a new career in politics? You've always very roundly criticised anyone who's told you off for criticising rides. You've maintained your right to hold an opinion on a subject in which you haven't had an hour's experience. So why is it so different, so bad, when others do likewise? Both jobs - as I said - are voluntary. No-one is forced to put themselves at risk in either job, yet they do. I'm quite convinced that were Richard Hughes to make a poor riding decision, fall off and break his leg, you'd be the first still criticising his riding! Anyway, enough of that, although I'll point out in neon colours the next time you task a jockey...
Since we haven't been heatedly denying transgressing Iranian sea lanes, we might reasonably assume that we've made a poor sailing decision and got copped for doing so. We now seem to be turning a fiasco into a farce with the arse-about-face decision regarding the rights or not to publish 'stories', many of which I feel are going to be highly embellished and edited to make the 13 days sound like an unbearable ordeal, which it clearly wasn't.
There are now confessions of fearing being 'sexually abused' by both the Turvey woman and one of the young men. In custody, in madly Islamic Iran? That would be a death sentence for the perpetrator, and while the Shah used such tactics in his brutal suppression of the more traditionally-minded Shi'ites in his jails, under his despised secret police, I haven't heard of any reports that this regime has employed such evil. We ought to be seeking more light and much less heat in our reporting, and in the information provided to youngsters abroad in the military.
When my father joined the paratroopers to fight in the Second World War, they were put through an extremely rigorous mock interrogation, which included light deprivation (i.e. being kept in the dark), stripped and bound to a chair, threatened, hit, denied food, etc. The idea was to give the paras a small idea of what interrogation methods could be like, at their easiest. He told my mother later that it was much more terrifying than hiding out for four days from the Germans, being captured, and shunted off into a POW camp (courtesy of the balls-up known as 'Operation Market Garden' or the 3-day drop at Arnhem, Holland).
I can't believe that any of our personnel are put in the way of possible hazard without being taken through some reasonably similar exercise - not so rigorous, perhaps, but at least a good idea of what might be expected. If they're not, then perhaps now is a good time to start thinking of doing it.
Since we haven't been heatedly denying transgressing Iranian sea lanes, we might reasonably assume that we've made a poor sailing decision and got copped for doing so. We now seem to be turning a fiasco into a farce with the arse-about-face decision regarding the rights or not to publish 'stories', many of which I feel are going to be highly embellished and edited to make the 13 days sound like an unbearable ordeal, which it clearly wasn't.
There are now confessions of fearing being 'sexually abused' by both the Turvey woman and one of the young men. In custody, in madly Islamic Iran? That would be a death sentence for the perpetrator, and while the Shah used such tactics in his brutal suppression of the more traditionally-minded Shi'ites in his jails, under his despised secret police, I haven't heard of any reports that this regime has employed such evil. We ought to be seeking more light and much less heat in our reporting, and in the information provided to youngsters abroad in the military.
When my father joined the paratroopers to fight in the Second World War, they were put through an extremely rigorous mock interrogation, which included light deprivation (i.e. being kept in the dark), stripped and bound to a chair, threatened, hit, denied food, etc. The idea was to give the paras a small idea of what interrogation methods could be like, at their easiest. He told my mother later that it was much more terrifying than hiding out for four days from the Germans, being captured, and shunted off into a POW camp (courtesy of the balls-up known as 'Operation Market Garden' or the 3-day drop at Arnhem, Holland).
I can't believe that any of our personnel are put in the way of possible hazard without being taken through some reasonably similar exercise - not so rigorous, perhaps, but at least a good idea of what might be expected. If they're not, then perhaps now is a good time to start thinking of doing it.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Didn't I hear somewhere that over 2,000 British forces personnel have gone A.W.O.L. from Iraq.
That is not meant to be a comment on their courage, more a criticism of their decision on a choice of career.
That is not meant to be a comment on their courage, more a criticism of their decision on a choice of career.
A
Ardross
Guest
And if only threatened rather than perpetrated ....
Shame Ms Turvey and the young man weren't quite up to date on the likelihood of sexual abuse by the revolutionary guard .
Apologies Warbler - I meant troops in Iraq, not Iran of course and I am quite aware of the difference!
I do consider Iraq to be a 'battle zone' inasmuch as we entered the country illegally and I don't see how we can view the subsequent, blatently obvious aftermath of that action as producing anything other than a war zone, whether we are battling terrorists or an indigenous population as a whole.
Well, I know one of those 2,000 - after his first tour of Iraq he went AWOL twice and was collared the forst time by the military police. While in chokey at Warminster, he arranged an 'accident' on his hand and went AWOL again, went to the local doctors, got signed off there and then as a result of that, was put 'on leave' by his unit commander. During all of this time he was on full pay, I might add. He in fact took nearly two years of full pay and was only returned to civilan life in January of this year.
This is down to inept and misinformed recruiting by the Armed Forces, pressured to increase their recruiting activities by whichever governement is in power during times of military 'crises'. The lad I refer to was an eighteen year old when he enlisted and was quite obviously unsuitable - he thought it would be good money for an exciting life and a good career and prospects to boot.
It should be made quite plain to any recruit that by taking the Queen's Shilling, they acknowledge that they are putting their life at risk - no matter how small that risk might be, it exists. No one can make a guarantee to a service person that they won't face hostile action - it's an impssibility. So, as I said earlier, if you can't accept that risk, don't join up. As matters stand right now, we have the luxury of not being forced to enlist - our parents and grandparents were not so lucky.
I agree, I've never been in such a situation but I hope I would have enough basic stubborness and bloody mindedness to keep my nerve - at least until actual physical punishment became totally unbearable!!
I agree in the main with Warblers views on this ..
James - just keep digging that hole..... As you have also not been in the position of being a either a hostage, POW or a captured member of the Armed Forces who was pretty obviously where they shouldn't have been, then you opinion is no more or less valid than ours.
A
Ardross
Guest
The only hole digging going on has been by those who made offensive criticisms before the service personnel were even interviewed.
Your Dad was lucky Krizon. When my Grandad was out against the Black and Tans in the War of Independence against the occupying oppressive forces of the Crown he was put put through an extremely rigorous mock interrogation, which included heavy deprivation.
Well, if you want to enter a conflict pissing contest, AC: the Germans made up for this oversight by the British Army very nicely later by ensuring that the 6' 2" of him came back weighing under ten stone. He was lucky - the political prisoners billetted behind separate barbed wire were seen being regularly battered as well as starved. And as for my 'real' father, his brother, they did outstandingly better with him and blew him and his MTB crew to bits. So, a big thanks to everyone in hostile Eire who supported the Third Reich and did their little bit for world peace.
Three cheers for hate and conflict! It gives everyone a nice chip on the shoulder to carry around, if they wish. Personally, I don't, but feel free, AC, feel free.
Three cheers for hate and conflict! It gives everyone a nice chip on the shoulder to carry around, if they wish. Personally, I don't, but feel free, AC, feel free.
Well, if you want to enter a conflict pissing contest, AC: the Germans made up for this oversight by the British Army very nicely later by ensuring that the 6' 2" of him came back weighing under ten stone. He was lucky - the political prisoners billetted behind separate barbed wire were seen being regularly battered as well as starved. And as for my 'real' father, his brother, they did outstandingly better with him and blew him and his MTB crew to bits. So, a big thanks to everyone in hostile Eire who supported the Third Reich and did their little bit for world peace.
Three cheers for hate and conflict! It gives everyone a nice chip on the shoulder to carry around, if they wish. Personally, I don't, but feel free, AC, feel free. ("Light" deprivation = locked up in the dark, to clear that up.)
Songsheet's points about the recruits being still given the old gung-ho, off for a jolly outing stuff sounds as if the armed forces are still employing the same Boys' Own Adventure tactics that they did for the First World War. Even the adverts on tv are all rather Action Mannish. Most of the work is desperately boring, with long periods of setting-up and observing. But when hell breaks loose, it has to be something the 'kids' (and at 18 they really are) have been prepared for. And it's not even banging away at each other with returns of fire. The scenario of the poor lads hacked to bits in their small, underarmed and undermanned station in Iraq doesn't bear thinking about, yet it must've been a huge underestimate by their officers to have left them so vulnerable. Those sorts of things, and like those of these kids in their pedalo adrift on the Arabian Gulf, just must NOT happen.
Three cheers for hate and conflict! It gives everyone a nice chip on the shoulder to carry around, if they wish. Personally, I don't, but feel free, AC, feel free. ("Light" deprivation = locked up in the dark, to clear that up.)
Songsheet's points about the recruits being still given the old gung-ho, off for a jolly outing stuff sounds as if the armed forces are still employing the same Boys' Own Adventure tactics that they did for the First World War. Even the adverts on tv are all rather Action Mannish. Most of the work is desperately boring, with long periods of setting-up and observing. But when hell breaks loose, it has to be something the 'kids' (and at 18 they really are) have been prepared for. And it's not even banging away at each other with returns of fire. The scenario of the poor lads hacked to bits in their small, underarmed and undermanned station in Iraq doesn't bear thinking about, yet it must've been a huge underestimate by their officers to have left them so vulnerable. Those sorts of things, and like those of these kids in their pedalo adrift on the Arabian Gulf, just must NOT happen.
James - if anyone on here has been offensive, you would come pretty near the top of my list by your comment below
You can have no knowledge of anyone's courage or lack of it on here. If you are including me in that gross over generalisation, then that's an opinion only and as such, equally without substance or foundation as any other comments made so far in reaction to this incident.
Gareth - hey, AC takes the gloves off to remind us Ingleesis how appalling we've been to the Irish, pretty much every time there's a topic on any conflict. You ought to know by now that I'm not one of the most reticent posters on here, and even if people don't like what I say, don't agree with me, etc., I'm not interesting in winning a competition for 'cutest posting'. I made the posting about my father (well, technically, my stepfather) as it was germane to the topic of informing British military recruits as to what can lie ahead for them.
I don't in the least mind AC putting up his grandfather's experience as a lousy one, but we probably all have someone affected by a war somewhere, and it seemed another gratuitous dig at how nasty we English were to you. Let's not try to rewrite history to suit today, shall we? Remind me how Ireland supported Britain, will you? I'm very happy to learn something, really.
I don't in the least mind AC putting up his grandfather's experience as a lousy one, but we probably all have someone affected by a war somewhere, and it seemed another gratuitous dig at how nasty we English were to you. Let's not try to rewrite history to suit today, shall we? Remind me how Ireland supported Britain, will you? I'm very happy to learn something, really.
Dammit! Can't you keep a secret, either?? "I'm sorry, Flynn, but we're afraid we don't think you're cut out for the espionage game, old boy... "
I like the idea that AC may never know, Gareth. Any more than I never know when he's black-and-tanning my backside!
I like the idea that AC may never know, Gareth. Any more than I never know when he's black-and-tanning my backside!
A
Ardross
Guest
James - if anyone on here has been offensive, you would come pretty near the top of my list by your comment below
You can have no knowledge of anyone's courage or lack of it on here. If you are including me in that gross over generalisation, then that's an opinion only and as such, equally without substance or foundation as any other comments made so far in reaction to this incident. [/b][/quote]
No more can any of those whether on here or elsewhere who have had the temerity to doubt the courage of those personnel .
Nobody can have any idea how they would respond to such a situation until they are or were in it .
If you find drawing that to anyone's attention on here "offensive "- so be it
When you become a member of the Armed Forces there are traditions and expectations to meet in the performance of your job - in just the same way other jobs also have certain traditions in the way business is conducted in that industry or profession (barristers for one!!).
I don't doubt the courage of all those personnel but I do have doubts about some of them. I really do find it totally unacceptable that they are being encouraged to spill all to the Press - especially when those of us with half a brain know that much of what they will say will not be accurately reproduced and half of the population will believe every word without question...
And yes, I probably do have high expectations of how I expect anyone in uniform to conduct themselves and I would hold these fifteen in a lot more esteem if they had simply refused to make any public statements whatsoever, because their silence would have spoken volumes as to their courage, while this self-justification simply confirms the reverse.
I don't doubt the courage of all those personnel but I do have doubts about some of them. I really do find it totally unacceptable that they are being encouraged to spill all to the Press - especially when those of us with half a brain know that much of what they will say will not be accurately reproduced and half of the population will believe every word without question...
And yes, I probably do have high expectations of how I expect anyone in uniform to conduct themselves and I would hold these fifteen in a lot more esteem if they had simply refused to make any public statements whatsoever, because their silence would have spoken volumes as to their courage, while this self-justification simply confirms the reverse.
AC - just the one testicle? Was that at the start of, or after, the attentions? But look on the bright side - it still brought, eventually, your coruscating presence to this forum, so every dark cloud has a silver lining.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Is Blair being economical with the truth again?
The claim that he knew nothing about the decision to allow the service people to publish their stories doesn't really fit with what we know about his style of government.
Would the Defence Secretary be allowed to make a decision like this without reference to our president?
The claim that he knew nothing about the decision to allow the service people to publish their stories doesn't really fit with what we know about his style of government.
Would the Defence Secretary be allowed to make a decision like this without reference to our president?