Charlie Hebdo protests

No Warbler, much as your notradamous-like vision is more and more feasible, what happened 12 years ago is no justification for genocide, murder, or the fantasies people want to live out. Namely ISIS, Boko Haram and Vladamir Putin.

That would make us all hostages to other people/groups/religions political motives, for the rest of etermity, based on the Iraq war of 2003.

The above is not a notion I want to intellectually embrace.

The bottom line is, if world war three has already started, or is going to start, such an action will have happend regardless of Blair/Bush invasion of 2003. In other words, it would have happened and will happen anyway.

Quite apart from the fact you first sentance makes no sense, you're otherwise wrong.

Had we not been bone headedly intervening in places like Iraq, there would be no ISIS today. We can extrapolate with a fair degree of certainty on that (even Clive conceded that point). There were a few Islamic groups in Iraq in the 1980's but Saddam Hussein had pretty well destroyed them. The only active group was operating under the protection of John Major's no fly zones, much to Saddam's annoyance as he wanted to kill them too.

Similarly, Gadaffi was in the process of pushing back the rebellion in Libya which would have been defeated within a week, before we intervened there and opened up the vacuum that AQ in the islamic magreb are now exploiting

Boko Haram you can argue about. They've been knocking about for a tad over a decade but its only in the last couple of years when they've adopted ISIS that they've become a threat. Would this have happened had ISIS not been around to provide the stimuli? I don't know. Their strength owes a lot to the fact that the Nigerian government are ambivalent to them given that they're murdering people who don't vote for Goodluck Johnathon, but they'd actually been one of the easier groups to defeat

I'd be pretty confident that what we would now be facing instead is a disparate group of terrorist organisations, which to a large extent is what Islamism always was prior to 1990. Your first line of defence would be the armies and secret police forces of the hosting states, and although they'd be pinned down dealing with this domestic threat, the evidence suggests that they were on top of it for the most part

The only places where such activity could gain traction would be failed lawless states like Afghanistan, Yemen, and Somalia. You wouldn't be seeing the likes of Syria, Iraq, and Libya drifting violently into fundamentalism

The other unknowns of course are what effect not having a quarter of million military personnel pinned down in Iraq for a decade might have created for us by way of opportunity cost. Also the fact that when civil wars breakout we get populations displaced and some of these (not as many as popular myth would have us believe) end up in Europe. Of these, some will radicalise unable to adapt and become domestic threats

There's a lot of people seemingly who made catastrophically gung ho noises back in 2003 who can now see that their judgement has been spectacularly wrong and seek instead to qualify things by blaming an aspect of the planning (something that didn't do at the time). I also think it's natural enough that they seek solace in an imaginary comfort blanket that all of this would have happened anyway (as you're doing). Put bluntly, there isn't a shred of evidence to support the view that it would have happened on anything like this scale. The most likely scenario you would have had is a series of terrorist groups linked together by a concept of quasi nationalism in the case Aleppo, and an emerging radical Islamist charcater. Nothing new in other words. You wouldn't have sovereign states (even we don't recognise them) running about with abandoned American made weapons that the Iraq army threw down. Indeed, the Iraqi army as was, would have the very same people who make up ISIS today fighting in defence of Ba'athtists and Saddam

If you want an example of how a small incident snowballs into warfare then look no further than the driver of Franz Ferdinands car who decided to take a different route back from the Trade Hall. So yes, this seemingly innocuous action that drove him past a patisserie in which Prinzek happened to be sitting with his weapon still active set in train a chain of events that ended with the deaths of millions, the birth of communism, and sowed the seed for the emergence of nazism.

Historical causation is a multi faceted creature but your notion that the invasion of Iraq is something of a footnote can't be stated so unequivocally.
 
Which authority, Warbler? Islam doesn't have an equivalent of the Pope. Plenty of Muslim immigrants are staying in touch with their roots, but they are not one homogenous mass of people ready to march to the same beat.

They don't need to be, and if you're waiting for some kind of critical mass threshold to be passed before you recognise the threat it's likely too late by then.

The authority is the loose family of radicalism and the interpretation of the Koran that so called moderate muslims are telling us that the uber radicals are perverting. The leaders tend to be tribal, favourite imans, websites, or social media platforms, it's not necessary to have an old guy with a questionable background regarding the Argetine 'disappeared' to give leadership to a cause any longer. Indeed, it's actually much more powerful when that leadership isn't human and is instead a multi headed hydra capable fo reaching out across the globe to anyone who logs on to them

I think our politicians and bureaucrats have always been behind the curve in trying to keep up to speed with the changing nature of the threat, and we're certainyl not being helped by someone like Cameron in particular, who seems to be locked in the cold war still
 
I'm not arguing for inaction. Instead I'm suggesting that any action taken, if it is to be useful, has to based on accurate assessment of the threat. We don't want to see the mistakes* of Bush and Blair being repeated.

Is the concept of a multi-headed hydra a genuinely useful analogy? I don't know the answer, I'm just asking. If it's more a loose network of like-minded cells in different places, listening to similar but not identical voices, rather than an integrated movement with a co-ordinated strategy, then the chances are that they will be unable to mount a sustained campaign as opposed to a random stream of incidents. In the long run it should also be easier to isolate and close them down.


*(crimes, more like)
 
All I can say is....I was totally against the Iraq War and still am Warbler. I was banging on about how bad the decision and evidence was for that war on places like this and TRF for years, I didn't just become interested a year ago. I enjoy reading your anaylsis, but you place too much emphiases on something that happened 12 years ago, when we've got barrel-bombing and chemical weapons dropping bastards in Assad parading themselves on the BBC denying all knowledge today. My current views would be in line with someone like Rory Stewart, Chairman of the Defence Select Committee, who has recently written a book about why too much intervention in 2003 shouldn't mean never intervening again given the right circumstances.

You can write as many essays as you want but at some point intervention is required in other parts of the world. I'd rather someone like yourself analysed what type of intervention that should be and other strategic points of interest rather than adopting the position which you now take, which is that we should just do nothing while this so-called world war three as you've called it breaks out.
 
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I think it's a useful analogy in so far as radical islam is the hydra, the specific head is very often the regional/ local grievance that most pre-occupies the group that is answering the call and organising. This was always what AQ had envisaged anyway. They didn't have a top down command and control as such, but rather a centralised facilitator closer to crowd funding in principle

I think the other major development is the speed with which messages can be altered and bent for specific consumption for various groups. In the good old days of revolution you might have a major work like "what is to be done" and this would then be updated through underground presses, but these days you can produce well polished videos and have them trending within minutes

The correct assessment of the threat is of paramount importance. I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong, it's just that I've been overcome with a particularly dystopic perspective on this. I really don't see anything other than a major conflict coming now. I think we've sleepwalked into it, and i do blame one particularly imbecilic President. Blair was little more than an accomplice, indeed, when Blair was exeperiencing domestic difficulty on the issue, Bush did assure him that he didn't need to join in if he didn't want to, and that America would go it alone.

I do feel that without the interventions from 2003 onwards, we'd currently be facing a series of partly connected terrorist groups rather than organised armies, and sovereign states falling under their control. Luckily the Egyptian military is strong enough to reverse what was happening there, but that would have been the most significant of the lot if they hadn't, yet just to underline how poor our strategic grip is on the dynamics, we were cheering on the process that led to the people voting for the Muslim Brotherhood (principally William Hague - has there ever been a more inept Foreign Secretary?).

How would things have panned out under this scenario?

The respective governments of the hosting countries would have been in the front line ranged against their islamist opponents. That's always been the case and it isn't a new phenomena. In places like Somalia and Yemen, the radicals might have prevailed. But as the Egyptians have proven, as indeed had Saddam prior to that, and Gadaffi was in the process of doing before we stopped him, the old soviet leaning despots would have likely contained the threat. The natural escalation at worst would have been a regional conflict with the respective governments holding the cards
 
have we gone off topic?..i thought we were talking about Muslims who live here and how some are perceiving them as not able to adapt to living here ..have we gone back to whether intervention against Isis + co is necessary..sorry but i'm getting confused..i am old though
 
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I do not believe that an imminent coordinated attack on the west from all radical Muslims groups is imminent or on the horizon. There is too much scaremongering here and comparing with the start ofvthe First World War is nonsense. There is nothing like the same dynamics now.

there is a strong school of thought that last weeks disgusting burning could easily rebound and that it was an indication that isis was leaderless. It was condemned by al quaeda let alone every iman everywhere. Does it really act as a recruiting agent ? Especially when it's become clear they are treating deserters in the same way?

As for integrating in uk society, Muslims have lived here for a very long time but it really has been the ill thought out immigration from the more primitive and radical states that has been counterproductive. I'm not so sure it's the powder keg that some think and we were arguably in a worse position 10 or 20 years ago when extremist preachers we tolerated and even promoted by certain politicians. Also who would have expected that there would have been so few terrorist attacks (a good number foiled admittedly) since 7/7?


frankly integration comes down to a few simple points. You respect and abide by our laws and freedoms You do not intimidate and try to force your values and prejudices on the rest of the population.You do not educate your kids in bigotry. Abide by that (as per virtually every other minority) and you can do what you what. Overstep the mark and you can fck off.
 
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have we gone off topic?..i thought we were talking about Muslims who live here and how some are perceiving them as not able to adapt to living here ..have we gone back to whether intervention against Isis + co is necessary..sorry but i'm getting confused..i am old though

Because every issue has to come back to the USA and bush. Even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with Muslim integration in the uk.

Might be worth asking which western country has a huge number of Muslims with barely a murmur of dissent?
 
No Warbler, much as your notradamous-like vision is more and more feasible, what happened 12 years ago is no justification for genocide, murder, or the fantasies people want to live out. Namely ISIS, Boko Haram and Vladamir Putin.

That would make us all hostages to other people/groups/religions political motives, for the rest of etermity, based on the Iraq war of 2003.

The above is not a notion I want to intellectually embrace.

The bottom line is, if world war three has already started, or is going to start, such an action will have happend regardless of Blair/Bush invasion of 2003. In other words, it would have happened and will happen anyway.

this is true. 9/11 was an attempt to start that war. It was the first major salvo( although they tried a few years before) Undoubtably it was a disappointment to al qaueda that it did not escalate . Their subsequent actions became more desperate culminating in the bombs in Jordan that alienated the Arab world big time.

Everyone is assuming that isis will be straight line progress into a army that will take on the world.
 
Because every issue has to come back to the USA and bush. Even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with Muslim integration in the uk.

Might be worth asking which western country has a huge number of Muslims with barely a murmur of dissent?

France = 7.5%
Belgium = 6.0%
Austria = 5.7%
Nethrlands = 5.5%
Germany = 5.0%
Sweden = 4.9%
UK = 4.6%
Norway = 3.0%
Canada = 2.8%
Italy = 2.6%
Spain = 2.3%
Australia = 1.9%
China = 1.8%
Ireland = 0.9%
USA = 0.8%

The number of gross muslims, or should that be gross number of muslims living in the US, is lower than that of the UK, France, and Germany (assuming of course your guess was in praise of the US). The number living in Europe completely swamps the number in North America on any sensible analysis. As it happens Clive, the US has the lowest percentage of muslims in all major western countries. You might expect them to have a larger total population by dint of the size of their own population, but they don't even have that. They'd be ranked fourth if they were a European country. If you compare western Europe as a like for like entity with the US, then it's not even remotely close. Europe has getting on for 10 times the amount of muslims that the USA does. It's perhaps also worth noting that geographic proximity also ensures that Europe picks up more than its fair share of mobile displaced muslims from trouble spots rather than the more mercantile types who'll typical gravitate to the US with greater frequency.
 
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Everyone is assuming that isis will be straight line progress into a army that will take on the world.
Oh you do talk rubbish

Tell me who "everyone" is please? and then find me a post where anyone has forecast this as you describe it? Do you not know what asymmetrical warfare is? They aren't going to line their Subarus up against an Abrams are they? They ain't that stupid

It's why I've consistently said that our armies (Europe's) will be engaged alongside our police, private sector security companies and an expanded TA defending our own streets. Those countries with a smaller internal threat, or massive populations of their own to compensate otherwise (principally the US) but potentially joined by India, China and Russia will need to carry the fight into the heartlands and breeding grounds of the middle east

The war will play out across numerous theatres simultaneously, with southern Europe being particularly vulnerable. You only need to look at demographic projections in the next 50 years, and then marry that up with the way ISIS have used a variant on Blitzkreig in their advances in the middle east to see how it could happen. The same principle applies. You can also take a few pages from history and examine the way Gothic tribes who crossed the Danube to fall under the protection of Rome were subsumed within their society and assigned menial and subserviant tasks in decadant and complacent society. The Romans were distracted and produced a series of very poor leaders. They also had the stupidity to put Goths in their armies and taught them how to fight. It made sense to the lazy minded. Send the Goths and other Germanic tribes out to fight and die for us, whilst we enjoy our bread and circus's. Guess what happened
 
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