City of Troy.....think he deserves his own thread!

Totally agree:course record,off a modest early pace,and never in anny doubt or under any pressure.
Full credit to Ryan Moore for a brilliant tactical ride.
Timeform now rate COT 130,which severely under rates him,imo.
 
Re the form from the other thread - I think Bluestocking ran to form, would that not indicate Ghostwriter has maybe improved? I'd be tempted to take a positive view tbh.
 
I think GW was always pretty smart. Unbeaten at 2 then fourth on his reappearance in the Guineas to a decent winner. He then goes to Chantilly on heavy and was fourth there in the French Derby. Goes to Sandown, third to CoT on Soft. I think he’s a good ground horse personally who’s run well every time. I hope he stays in training as I could see him being better again at four.
 
jinnyj said:
I think GW was always pretty smart.
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Yes, 113 is smart. But if COT is some kind of superstar, what is Calandagan who ran him so close against the bias brought about by the conditions?

I said after the Derby I had COT on 120++ and felt he was a 130 horse waiting to happen. Timeform are ballpark 5lbs higher than me and they are going 130 so I can see me coming up with something around the 125 mark but that is at least 20lbs shy of Frankel's best!
 
But this was 10f and surely his optimum is 12f? They’re opting for 10f to make him more commercial and he’s good enough to oblige. They’re going to target the BC Classic too to make his appeal vast and the most versatile stallion ever produced.
 
Now that is the holy grail ; COT has the tactical early speed, the toughness and the ability to keep galloping.
Ryan sent him for home a long way out.
Wayne had the sense after missing the break not to set COT off by trying to assume the lead which helped COT settle.
Whether he can get that advantage at BC is another matter but surely worth a try.
Watching the ITV coverage APOB was under full stress before and after the race.
Ryan's comments that it is better let the horse do the talking rather than talk for him as near a race instruction as he got.
The look he gave Matt C at presentation was priceless.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Yes, 113 is smart. But if COT is some kind of superstar, what is Calandagan who ran him so close against the bias brought about by the conditions?

I said after the Derby I had COT on 120++ and felt he was a 130 horse waiting to happen. Timeform are ballpark 5lbs higher than me and they are going 130 so I can see me coming up with something around the 125 mark but that is at least 20lbs shy of Frankel's best!
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Just asking, are you sure you can put another horse so far ahead of one who breaks the course record at a top track in one of the top races of the year? How much faster would Frankel have to have run today’s race to justify a 20lbs difference?
 
I think CoT has the most wonderful demeanour. He stands quietly both before and after his race just taking everything in. He’s got an aura and he just floats over the ground be it at the walk or gallop. It’s a sort of other worldly manner. You very rarely see it. I saw Frankel in the flesh and never got it from him but I thought he never looked fully mature until he had gone to stud. Sprinter Sacre, Bosra Sham and Pebbles were the others that I saw in real life that gave me that feeling.
 
Grey said:
Just asking, are you sure you can put another horse so far ahead of one who breaks the course record at a top track in one of the top races of the year? How much faster would Frankel have to have run today’s race to justify a 20lbs difference?
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This is the kind of thing people say when trying to argue that Arkle wasn't a 212 horse.

The next three home in his 2012 Juddmonte were ORs 122, 124 and 118 and he beat them by 7, 7 and 13 lengths respectively. The second and fourth got RPRs of 126 and 120 in their previous meeting, in the Eclipse. Frankel went off 1/10 and won like a 1/10 shot.
 
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I worry for anyone who thinks Arkle was a 212 horse. They obviously never researched the horses performances. His time in the King George was about the same as Kauto Stars slowest time but despite having a very fast pace set by Dunkirk was 4 seconds slower than Kauto Star best time and he was never out of a canter but historians never mention that. As far as Frankel V City of Troy goes City of Troy was all out while Frankel simply glided into the race and left them all for dead without breaking sweat.
We don't have to dig deep to compare these days there's too much video evidence to argue with findings....look back to Arkle's day and find a untouched video of the Gallagher gold cup that doesn't miss out 3 fences down the far side making it impossible to confirm the time

Which incidentally was disputed at the time
 
Desert Orchid said:
This is the kind of thing people say when trying to argue that Arkle wasn't a 212 horse.

The next three home in his 2012 Juddmonte were ORs 122, 124 and 118 and he beat them by 7, 7 and 13 lengths respectively. The second and fourth got RPRs of 126 and 120 in their previous meeting, in the Eclipse. Frankel went off 1/10 and won like a 1/10 shot.
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I’m not disputing a high rating for Frankel, it’s rather 125 looks too low after today for City Of Troy. I’m used to the RPR scale and I suspect they’ll go close to 130.
 
Tanlic said:
I worry for anyone who thinks Arkle was a 212 horse. They obviously never researched the horses performances. His time in the King George was about the same as Kauto Stars slowest time but despite having a very fast pace set by Dunkirk was 4 seconds slower than Kauto Star best time and he was never out of a canter but historians never mention that. As far as Frankel V City of Troy goes City of Troy was all out while Frankel simply glided into the race and left them all for dead without breaking sweat.
We don't have to dig deep to compare these days there's too much video evidence to argue with findings....look back to Arkle's day and find a untouched video of the Gallagher gold cup that doesn't miss out 3 fences down the far side making it impossible to confirm the time

Which incidentally was disputed at the time
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Comparing times 40years apart is used by all the top professionals -JP McManus says it helped to make him a billionaire.Anyone who wonders what effect the installation of an all weather track would have on the jumps course should immediately be dismissed as a Crank.
 
The Arkle argument rears up at least once a season and will never be proved or disproved.

Phil Smith spent something like two years trying to research the matter and gave up.

For me, the one fact that cannot be disputed is that Arkle changed the face of handicapping. When he was entered in a race the handicapper framed two sets of weights, one if he ran and one if he didn't because he was rated 35lbs and more higher than the next best. Take Arkle out of all the equations and we'd be looking at the top horses in the country with a ball-park rating of maybe 175 (12-7) so 212 doesn't seem fanciful to me.
 
I think it’s a shame that AOB has not let the horse do the talking . Wednesday was impressive but I am far from sure C of T would beat the runner up at Longchamp over 12f . The Breeders Cup Classic idea is depressing . Risking a horse like C of T on dirt strikes me as greedy. He already is their Galileo replacement .
 
I must say I would worry slightly about him at Del Mar. It’s the tightest of the US tracks and although he’s a beautiful mover, he isn’t the most straightforward in the steering department. They employed a bigger ring bit at York and I think Ryan makes him look easier than he is. So how he will cope around the tight turns on an unfamiliar surface could be interesting. That said, they’re going to think of everything to get it right.
 
Ardross said:
I think it’s a shame that AOB has not let the horse do the talking . Wednesday was impressive but I am far from sure C of T would beat the runner up at Longchamp over 12f . The Breeders Cup Classic idea is depressing . Risking a horse like C of T on dirt strikes me as greedy. He already is their Galileo replacement .
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To get an Epsom Derby winner to win a Breeders Cup Classic would be the ultimate -Coolmore seem determined to do it.I would say it is a brave and imaginative move.
 
LUKE said:
To get an Epsom Derby winner to win a Breeders Cup Classic would be the ultimate -Coolmore seem determined to do it.I would say it is a brave and imaginative move.
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Brave;but with the purpose of hooking dollars from US breeders.
Unusually for , Coolmorel they made his plan public at a very early stage.
A measure the esteem they hold him in,undoubtedly
 
Ardross said:
I think it’s a shame that AOB has not let the horse do the talking . Wednesday was impressive but I am far from sure C of T would beat the runner up at Longchamp over 12f . The Breeders Cup Classic idea is depressing . Risking a horse like C of T on dirt strikes me as greedy. He already is their Galileo replacement .
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The French horse does deserve a mark up. Shame we won't see the rematch in the Arc as one not going and the other can't run.
 
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