Coolmore

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mrussell

At the Start
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Hi,

Reading with interest the thread on the KGVI&QE, I woke up to the fact that the Coolmore operation seems unique. Bear with me here, as I haven't much knowledge in this arena.

It seems John Magnier is very much the boss & Aidan O'Brien is an employed horse trainer.
This arrangement seems unusual: of the big trainers like Stoute, Pipe Senior, Cecil as was, Nicholls, Dunlop -- they were/are all their own men and they train horses as well as manage their business .... correct?
Do you suppose it's this fact -- a non-horseman being in charge -- that's at the bottom of the antipathy towards Coolmore? Or have I mis-read it all? How about the Godolphin operation: is it quite the same (obviously not in terms of breeding results!)
 
I have always assumed that AOB is very much in charge of Ballydoyle. I would say that the timing of Coolmore setting up in Ballydoyle and the emergence of AOB as a training supremo was no coincidence, they were waiting for someone extraordinary to come through that they could rely on. Magnier retains the right to remove AOB whenever he wants but other than that I doubt he interfers in the running of Ballydoyle any more than any other owner would with any other trainer. The Godolphin operation seems far different in this respect.

It would be interesting, if AOB were to walk out (something that wouldn't unduly surprise me), what Coolmore would do. Somehow I can't just see them picking the next trainer on the list to carry on with. I believe AOB is integral to the whole racing operation and as such is a fair bit more than just a valued employee.

As for the antipathy towards Coolmore. There is no fun watching horrendously wealthy people get even wealthier. I have learned to look beyond that.
 
Magnier retains the right to remove AOB whenever he wants but other than that I doubt he interfers in the running of Ballydoyle any more than any other owner would with any other trainer
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Not entirely sure about that. Would Dylan Thomas's late campaign been the same if ity was purely down to AOB? The Hong kong run? Also, some of the "enough speed for the july cup" type stuff is clearly geared towards, at the very least, keeping the bosses happy

I think some of the antipathy is down to a couple of factors. A natural reaction to those that seem to go on about them as if they were blindly supporting Man utd is one factor...allied to a bit of flag waving. The hype and sometimes misleading comments (although this has improved a bit perhaps) has contrasted badly with the more open approach of Godolphin. Team tactics havent always looked good too.

I think most punters really respect and like AOB but some might feel that the connections seem a bit of a joyless bunch. But you have to respect their achievements

Would he strike out on his own? Ultimately the challenge of attracting owners, being entirely his own boss and building from a less elavated base is one i could imagine appealing to him somehow
 
Aidan O'Brien of course did work up to the Ballydoyle job, being champion trainer before being in situ there.

But, of course, Magnier has the final say. I'm sure Holy Roman Emperor would have run in the guineas if it was down to the trainer. Coolmore are the breeding operation, with a training arm aimed at winning as much as possible.

I really think the July Cup quote is old and pointless. Was it initially said about Hawk Wing? Sure what would O'Brien know regarding dropping milers or guineas hopefuls down to the July Cup distance?

Despite being the training arm of a breeding operation, I dont think I've been put away by the hype. The one that I remember being wrong was Second Empire but again that was rumour rather than O'brien statements.

The english media tend to hype the foreigners a bit. I dont think any O'Brien horse was hyped to Visindar proportions. Rock of Gilbraltar was never as good as mill reef, but O'Brien didnt say so, the press went along with it. It was clear that O'Brien felt Hawk Wing was superior. Same with the Iron Horse tag given to Giants Causeway.
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
Hawk Wing post-Derby.
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That particular year the July Cup was won by Continent and Bahamian Pirate with Landseer back in a close up fourth. Given Hawk Wing’s performance from the front at Newbury…I don’t think it is that extreme to think he could have won the July Cup that year if he was trained for it.

Obviously O’Brien’s decisions are influenced by Magnier’s stallion policy but the idea that he is some sort of “pawn” of Magniers could not be further from the truth. O’Brien wanted to run Dylan Thomas in the Arc, Tabor admitted afterward that they didn’t but they left it up to the trainer. Since O’Brien has really got a foot hold in Coolmore he has influenced the yard to run their horses far more aggressively and often. Magnier is not the sort of guy to ignore the opinion of a trainer like O’Brien…he did not get to where he is today by ignoring sound advice. Magnier admitted at Ascot that it was O’Brien who said after the QEII last year to put Duke Of Marmalade away for the year and bring him back next year…Magnier was keen to retire the horse as a cheap son of Danehill.

Obviously decisions such as Holy Roman Emperor being retired are out of his hands, but on a day to day, race planning day he has far more influence than people give him credit for.
 
Off topic:
I have this lingering impression that Hawk Wing was kind of sidelined in favour of Rock of Gibraltar after finishing 2nd to RoG in the Guineas (too late -- thanks Jamie!) & wondering if that was a fact-of-life Coolmore commercial decision, or just a bit of imagining on my part. (I thought HW was the better horse, but they went with RoG because of that win.)
 
But, of course, Magnier has the final say
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Maybe I'm wrong, but as regards the preparation and placing of horses, I would say O'Brien has the final say. Magnier, like any other owner, would have an input into which races he would prefer to win with which horses and like most trainers O'Brien would do his best to accomodate. I doubt many trainers would have the luxury of dealing with many owners as knowledgeable and experienced as Magnier and his advisors anyway, so I can't see there would be many/any areas of dispute.

In the Dylan Thomas case it was run or retire. There seemed no harm in hoping for the best. I can't believe Magnier would have decided to run him if O'Brien thought it would endanger the horse. With Holy Roman Empire, the owner simply removed the horse, no trainer would have a say in that decision. It was not a training decision.

....

Oops - what Galileo said.
 
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Yes, but he was being trained for the guineas. Coolmore > Ballydoyle. Breeding > Training. Magnier > o'Brien.

If it ever really was in dispute.
 
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Actually, to contradict myself slightly (or completely), I wouldn't be entirely surprised if AOB did have an input into that decision.
 
I think the final decision comes from magnier, and this is not always pro horse. Dylan Thomas was in a very bad condition in japan and -for me- O'Brien would have sent him home. But Dylan Thomas had to run in Hong Kong and as special reward travel to America. Neither Dylan Thomas nor George Washington had deserved to run under such bad conditions, but if this powerful money making machine is in progress nothing can stop it.
I can not believe that these decisions came, come and will come from a horseman like Aidan O'Brien.
 
I suspect Dylan Thomas was run in Hong Kong partially out of a feeling that they owed the HKJC something for getting them out of a stupid and embarrassing situation in Japan.

Monmouth was a freak accident. Fact is, more horses died on the fast dirt surface that George ran on in the previous year's Breeders' Cup.
 
mrussell said:
How about the Godolphin operation: is it quite the same (obviously not in terms of breeding results!)
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I think most people respect what Godolphin bring in terms of sportsmanship (with the possibile exception of trying to buy the States). However I think that that is more than counteracted by their feats with purchased horses.

The other day there was a thread about how few horses had improved out of Ballydoyle. The complete opposite has to be true of Godolphin. How many stars have they stolen from the racing world, only for them never to perform to the same level of ability again? This has cost them my respect.
 
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I meant from a fan's point of view rather than the owners; and thus think stolen is very appropriate.
 
mrussell said:
Do you suppose it's this fact -- a non-horseman being in charge -- that's at the bottom of the antipathy towards Coolmore?
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Whatever about the reasons why people bear a grudge against Coolmore, it would be very foolish to call John Magnier a "non-horseman." While he is of course a very astute businessman, it's worth bearing in mind that were it not for his knowledge of horses/bloodlines, he would never have built the business empire he presides over today.
 
AOB came to Coolmore at a fairly mature stage in its development. It has just matured even more now with the Tabor and Smith money. Something Sangster and Niarchos had already helped along the way. I'd be surprised if AOB left anytime soon. His children ride out every day and he seems happy enough to be prepping them for the big day. Murtagh seems to work well with him. I'm sure a time will come when he will decide enough is enough but I reckon they will push the kids through first and then he might pack it in. So that will be another ten years. At that stage, Tom will have taken over at Coolmore and we could have AOB lining up Joseph to take over. While Wachman is "in" the family I sometimes think he would prefer to be prepping them for a bumper ala Hales style. Unless someone has some inside info, I don't see any reason why AOB would leave and at the end of the day, he is being retained by a very very influential person who I'm sure appreciates the talent training the horses.
 
I'm sure AO'B's stunning and increasing success has provided him with a great deal more influence and decision-making power then he had earlier on. And given the stunning horse-power he has at his disposal, the money he must be making to set up his family for life, and assumed he has a fair degree of autonomy, why would he leave?

But I'm sure there are moments - running GW on dirt and in that slush must have been one - when he questions what he's doing. I don't believe for a moment that run was contemplated for any reason other than stallion value. I do believe a certain pressure as regards running plans is applied - how could it not be, given that the training operation is there entirely to service the breeding side?

On balance however, he must be better off where he is than working for himself - after all the main risk and work in being a trainer is finding the right horses, a worry he hardly needs to bother his head about! Though as others noted he may decide to go solo when the kids are through their education, since ambitious men need a new challenge from time to time
 
trackside528 said:
Whatever about the reasons why people bear a grudge against Coolmore, it would be very foolish to call John Magnier a "non-horseman." While he is of course a very astute businessman, it's worth bearing in mind that were it not for his knowledge of horses/bloodlines, he would never have built the business empire he presides over today.
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Hi,

Thanks for your correction. As you point out, Mr Magnier must be a 'horseman'. My mistake.
 
I'm sure the Coolmore mandarins hold AOB in the highest regard and will take his counsel and advice with the utmost respect. I'm reminded however of a comment he made after last years Derby where he patently went out of his way (for what ever reason) to thank the connections for allowing him to run so many horses. It indicated to me that he recommends and they ultimately decide, but they will take his recommendations very seriously as he has clearly won their respect through his results.

As regards the antipathy towards them, I tend to agree with Clive and calling it the Man U factor probably isn't too far off the mark. That it often goes accompanied with a degree of quasi nationalistic flag waving, and a blind allegiance of their righteousness on each and every issue, is a bit unedifying but nothing more than that, and it isn't enough to personally send me into the anti camp. I actually think they deserve a bit of credit for some of their multiple entries, as a few races (the 2007 Derby comes to mind, as does the Eclipse) might have looked decidely shallow spectacles without them.

The only thing I found a little bit disconcerting of late, was the way that the Horatio Nelson played out, although we never really got to the bottom of who said what to whom and when. My own suspicion is that Aiden probably got this one wrong, he is human afterall, and faced with the multitude of decisions he has to make in his career, he will eventually make a wrong call.

As regards striking out on his own? why would he? He clearly gets enough say in the plans to satisfy him, and he's being supplied with a production line of the best horses breeding can produce. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
That it often goes accompanied with a degree of quasi nationalistic flag waving
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That's part of every sport, isn't that a large part of what Cheltenham is about or do I misunderstand your point ?
 
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