Dangerous Dogs Act

99% of the time it most certainly is the owner and not the dog that will be to blame in instances of canine agression towards humans. However, there are dogs that are simply born 'bad' - just as there are in most mammal species. Maybe they are wired up wrong, maybe it's some sort of minimal oxygen deficiency at birth but there are most definitely dogs that are untrustworthy and which should be put down at the first sign of agression. The owners may have done nothing wrong at all - it's just bad luck due to bad genes.

The real crime in some cases are those canine behaviourists which refuse to accept that it's the dog and not the training that's the problem and have such massive egos that they really do believe they can change the dog's basic character. Which then leads to massive stress and pressure for owner and dog alike until the next major crisis occurs and the dog does get put down.
 
Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Jan 3 2007, 10:42 AM
maybe its the owners that need to be licenced not the dogs??????? :rolleyes:
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Too right Merlin.

As some of you know, I run Puppy School puppy classes to promote responsible dog ownership, and the hardest part of setting this all up, was actually finding a hall to run it in - none of the halls owned by my local council (and that's 90% of them) were allowed to take dogs, and the vast majority of the others simply wouldn't even accomodate us, even though I clean the entire hall every evening with a veterinary grade disinfectant!!

If folk like me can't find the facilities to teach people how to have pleasant and well trained/socialised dogs - how are we every going to have a well balanced dog population?

PS - two of the dogs I've had who made the most progress through classes were American Bull Terriers (different from 'Pit Bulls') both were very nervous at first, but with gentle management and plenty of good experiences, both were very happy pleasant dogs by the end of the course - but the training doesn't stop there......
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Jan 3 2007, 10:59 AM
It should probably be remembered that the breed involved in the attack was prohibited, and that the problem was a failure to effectively enforce the law - despite the local council receiving complaints about the animal.
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IT's not just the 'breed' but the 'type' - so in theory, those Lab x Staffies that Pheobejo talks of could also be at risk... :(

Those 'behaviourists' that Songsheet has so little regard for will so rarely see that 1/100 dog that is 'wired up wrong' that can they really be blamed for trying behavioral training methods before going to the last resort?
 
Raksha - I maybe didn't express myself too well there. I did not mean 'all' behaviourists - rather those that always assume it's the owner's fault and not the dog's. Their most oft-used quote being "It's not the dogs, it's the owners".

Now, as I think I said, 99% of the time they're right but now and then they're not and they should be able to recognise the difference, as they usually charge for their services!
 
Just as a matter of casual interest, say a young family wants to get a dog (either in pup or grown form) for their young children (say, two kids under the age of ten but over babyhood). Who could they turn to for informed advice? Does the Kennel Club offer such a consultancy service? It suddenly struck me, reading this topic, that if one can be offered a wrong type of horse by a seller anxious just to get the money, or if a rescue centre can send an elderly woman (okay, it was my Mother!) away with a FAR too lively young dog she had to return, then whose needs are being met? And how to get that information from a sensible, unbiased source?
 
Responsible breeders should not sell puppies to unsuitable homes - ie, to potential buyers who they know are unlikely to be able to either oofer a permenent stable home and/or have enough time to commit to training their pup properly.

But, as in anything, there are those out to make a quick buck and sell their puppies to anyone who comes up with the money.

This morning, a friend of mine has, for the past eighteen months, been a surrogate parent to a young man (Ben) who is in the Army but currently on sick leave due to PTS post Iraq plus a hand injury (which he did on leave....). Holly has six kids of her own and several dogs (you'd like her, Griffin!!) and her house is always immaculate (sickening). Ben saw an ad in the local paper for some Alaskan Malamute puppies and for reasons best known only to himself, went off (without telling Holly) and actually came home with a puppy bitch. Stupidly, Holly let him keep it (and as such is an equally guilty party) and now Ruby is some seven months old, getting to be typically obstinate and quite wilful (not breed untypical, I think?) and Ben has no interest in her and has moved out, leaving the bitch behind. So I can see one Alaskan Malamute coming up for rehoming but the main point is, the breeder was totally irresponsible in letting a twenty year old Army recruit purchase a puppy in the first place.
 
And I'm sure the KC would do bugger all about this, although I'm sure the breeder will be registered, Songy, don't you think?

Surely it should be a part of the KC's role as the registrar of pedigree breed owners, and the High Poo-Bah on breed standards (and therefore well aware of ALL breeds' characteristics, down to temperament, exercise needs, etc.), to insist that all of their breeders provide a full information pack (as you did) to owners, and advise and guide on appropriate breeds, not just the ones they sell?

How did the dead child's uncle come to own a banned dog, I wonder? Is there a secret breeding site in the same way there are still badger-baiting groups?
 
An iresponsible breeder & a would be owner who has not researched the needs of the breed of dog he/she wants = most of the dogs in rescues
 
With a bit of luck, this lunatic will be heavily-squeezed by the Polizei, if his conscience alone isn't operating, to say where he obtained his dog, and perhaps fighting-dog enthusiasts will end up being prosecuted heavily.

Would this count in the way of being banned from driving, yet taking a car and killing someone with it? It appears to be a strong analogy, unless there's a stronger one? Presumably it'll be a charge of manslaughter. If he goes to chokey, I hope the prisoners give him the respect they give all child killers.
 
I spoke to a member of the RSPCA some years back about puppy farms, Aldaniti. Their view was that they'd rather know where some of them were operating, than close them down! I was taken aback at this non-active role, and the man said it was better to be able to check on them, even if illegal than close them and drive them underground. :(
 
Originally posted by Raksha@Jan 3 2007, 04:51 PM

IT's not just the 'breed' but the 'type' - so in theory, those Lab x Staffies that Pheobejo talks of could also be at risk... :(
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:lol: I'm Griffin over here my dear :lol:
 
Pits are also banned here in Australia by law. Any litters that are now bred, the pups have to be desexed before they are placed into suitable homes.

But as some of you have said, people will always get around it, puppy mills for one, illegal backyard breeding (via dog fighting), etc.

What happens in the UK if a Pit ends up at a shelter and is not claimed? Do they, by law (like here in Australia) get euthanised, unless the owner shows up?
 
Originally posted by Grand Armee@Jan 3 2007, 07:19 PM
What happens in the UK if a Pit ends up at a shelter and is not claimed? Do they, by law (like here in Australia) get euthanised, unless the owner shows up?
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Registered Pit Bulls very rarely come into rescue but I do know of one that was rehomed via a very good rescue. Anybody with a crossbreed who stupidly tells a rescue the dog he's handing in is a Pit Bull will probably find from that day forward his dog becomes a Staff or bull breed cross. There are plenty of idiots out there who wrongly claim their mutt is a Pit Bull and they'd be very wise to keep their ill-informed traps shut right now.
 
Originally posted by Griffin+Jan 3 2007, 07:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Griffin @ Jan 3 2007, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Raksha@Jan 3 2007, 04:51 PM

IT's not just the 'breed' but the 'type' - so in theory, those Lab x Staffies that Pheobejo talks of could also be at risk... :(
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:lol: I'm Griffin over here my dear :lol: [/b][/quote]
Ops - at least you know who I meant :rolleyes:
 
Although my parents didn't have a dog when I was young, my uncle, who owned the 'caff' used by the local dockers and drivers three doors away, had big alsatian/german shepherd bitch that doubled as a pet and, at night, guard dog.

Big, because her owner and his customers were always feeding her, and fit, because he would take her on long walks at 5.00 am before opening up, she had a fiercesome bark which would frighten the life of anyone stopping in the doorway at night.
But during the day she was as friendly as could be with the customers and especially with my younger sisters and I who frequently visited to play with the dog ( and get a free bun or cake). The only times that her demeanour changed would be if someone attempted to pat myself or my sisters on the head ( such things were both normal and common then!) at which she would jump in front of us and stare at the 'offender' who would realise that to continue could mean the loss of a hand.

When our eldest was one we began to look for a dog at the same time that a local farmer sought good homes for the pups of his retriever type family dog and an alsatian that he had rescued. The pups looked like young alsatians and hoping that the retriever part was in the behaviour we took a dog with huge paws home. For me the dog was the perfect solution- a country dog that we as a family could run through the fields with, a companion for the kids ( another was on the way) and to a lesser degree a guard dog for the house. Morever he was a mongrel and would be less likely to suffer from the effects of inbreeding that seem to occur in many of the pure bred dogs that have been acquired by friends or family.

'Bill' (pictures to follow idc ) turned out to be the dog that I had dreamed of. We had many long walks/runs in the local woods and fields and could safely let him off lead having trained him not to bother cows or horses. At home he seemed to think that he was one of the kids joining in all their games including hide an seek in the garden and unfortunately at first,-burst balls-football, though eventually he became a decent goalkeeper. When other children came round to play many would be initially frightened as when a car pulled into the drive he would go nuts. However as soon as the door was opened by one of the family he would revert to normal. Still if an adult male entered the house he would treat them with obvious suspicion and even after being introduced would always ensure that he was between them and any kids.

We had ten great years from him and never a bite nor nip. Mrs.TS did most of the important early training but we were never hard on him. He hated the postman and put off a number of other casual callers and his only problem when out was if somone came past riding a bike quickly. We figure it might have been the optical effects made by the spokes as he would not bark if the bike was slow or stationary.

His alsatian looks obviously made some people wary, and a far fewer number frightened and in letting him off lead we probably broke a number of local if not national laws. I consider that my wife and I are responsible members of the community and do not feel that we were acting irresponsibly however when choosing a second dog as 'Bill' got old I somewhat reluctantly decided to avoid alsatian types and bought a retriever bitch.

The smallest in the litter when chosen 'Boo' (Boudicca) is pure white and huge, looking like a polar bear on all fours. She walks and runs like a tart in a tight skirt-apparently a common fault in the breed- wiggling her rear to the extent that it seems she will imminently topple over. Much as I care for her she wouldn't dream of trying to climb a tree to join the boys in their treehouse- I miss 'Bill'
 
TS, a great write up.

Rest assured, many dogs hate the postman and people riding past on bicycles. Barney is also nervous of joggers going past too. Barney doesn't mind the postman, in fact he really likes him, he is just terrified when things appear through the letterbox and starts barking and growling. Our postman thought we had a Rottweiller by the noise he made and couldn't believe it when he first saw the size of the dog that could make such a horrific noise when he posted the letters through. :o Barney recognises the sound of his van pulling up now (needs a new exhaust I think!) and lays in wait for him. I open the door now, so Derek (the postie) can make a fuss of him most mornings.
 
Murphy the older of my two springers ( 2 1/2 yrs) went through a stage last winter of barking at small/young children, it started at our local woods where we walk them at the weekend & he would be running around like a loony but a child appeared in one of those really big puffa jackets which made a weird noise when she moved, it spooked him big time & after that we noticed everytime he saw a small child near him he would start barking whilst walking backwards, that needed sorting out pronto for obvious reasons, it was difficult as I don't really know anyone with small children that I could de-sensitise him to them them on a reg basis, so knowing the headmaster of my sons old primary school which is 1ooyrds up the road I rung him up to say what I was going to do, I walked Murphy up to the area near the entrance every morning & afternoon when the children were coming out/in school & just stood there giving Murphy some nice treats, I did this solidly for three weeks & the result was no more barking :) now, I try to time my daily walk with them up to the park which is just past the school at morning breaktime when lots of the children are running about in the playground right next to the pavement further socialising the dogs to them.

I would advise anyone who gets a puppy who hasn't got any close young children to do this, not as much as I did but as often as you can, but one word of warning if you are not known by anyone at the school please contact them to say why you are standing near the school gates with a puppy :unsure: I didn't know any of the parents now as Jamie had left there 3/4 years ago but I knew the headmaster & most of the original teachers were still there so a quick phone call to explain would prevent any issues cropping up.
 
You have to ask whether it is pure coincidence that St Helens police have now raided illegal breeders and other sites in the area and seized a number of pit bulls bred for fighting. Another modern use for the pit bull terrier is as a guardian of drugs dealers. The little girl's uncle has convictions for dealing.
 
Great doggie stories! Bill sounds perfect, TS. When my parents and I transported ourselves to Africa in the early 1950s, the first dog they got was also an Alsatian, a bitch whose name was Joanna, but called just 'Jo'. She had a beautiful domed head with a little cream-coloured tuft of hair either side of her eyes, which made her look rather racy. She was a perfect companion for me, took to being around horses at the stables without a murmur, mixed well with other dogs, and adored my Dad and Mum. Like most dogs, she loved sticking her nose out of the car window and letting her ears fly free, and she was entirely forgiving when my parents took on a mongrel pup, to be named Fatso, who was particularly my Dad's companion. Much, at first, to my Dad's alarm. As an athletic six-footer, he was instantly adopted as Alpha Male by this little dog with the fluffy, curly tail, underslung jaw (there was Peke, Jack Russell and about 55 other breeds in him) and sparkling, cheeky ginger eyes. Fatso ended up accompanying my Dad to work in the PWD, which was next door to our house (Public Works Dept.) and sleeping on top of his feet! Having imagined him as a ladies' companion, my Father was soon to learn that Fatso was a real 'guy.

We had the most wonderful times with these two. Fatso was quite a little brawler: he got annoyed with Prince, a magnificent, stately rough collie, one day at the stables. An undignified squabble took place, with Prince snapping away at this common little oik. There was a silence, and I looked to see what had happened to Fatso. After a few seconds, he emerged from under Prince's long-haired belly, sneezing and grinning, having got lost in his opponent's long hair.

When we all went on long leave (6 months) to England, we left the two dogs in the care of a farmer my Mother knew. We got regular letters about them, which stopped suddenly. In the end, my Mother resorted to phoning to find out how they were. The news was tragic. First, Jo had gone missing while out on a foray in the bush with Fatso. There was suspicion that she may have wandered onto the farm next door, where the owner was known to shoot 'stray' dogs. We never knew what happened. Then, Fatso, who'd brawled, been kicked into a perfect parabola twice by angry horses - still barking as he flew through the air - and had survived a hit-and-run which ruptured his spleen and smashed a paw - had rushed out to greet the farm's owner as he returned from town. Fatso didn't realize that at that moment, as he rushed around the farm truck, the farm hands were offloading 33-gallon drums of oil for the generator. They rolled one off, and he was crushed instantly to death beneath it. The wife told my Mother that her husband cried all day, took a bottle of brandy to his bedroom with him, and didn't come out for three days. None of the farm dogs were permitted even in the house, but Fatso had slept on his bed since his first day there. He was that kind of guy.
 
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