What were his instructions?? Arthur Moore is a very clever tactician. I'm sure he would have given Russell instructions. Did he follow them? If so, not his fault. I'm not saying jocks should always follow instrcutions, the classic case being frankie dettori this season and he got away with it once but didnt other times. One of the greatest reasons jockeys get criticised is that they ride to instructions that none of us are privy to. It's one of the reasons Tommy Treacy was given such a hard time and there are many jocks like him. I have seen from owning horses the instructions that have been given to a jockey, including Russell, and I'm sure people thought he gave the horse a poor ride, but he rode exactly to instructions. just consider it before criticising a jockey.
Very well said Cantoris.
Some trainers get an idea in their head about a horse, instruct accordingly, and the jock has to follow it no matter what he thinks, even if he's ridden the horse a few times. Some trainers are better at giving the jock alternatives - "If they go quick up front, do such and such.... If you can lay up well and good, but if not..." Etc.
At least one trainer I know used to do this - but he's now decided jocks are too thick to keep the alts in their head that long, he reckons they can only manage one set of instructions, for better or worse! He says giving them alts just confuses them [the younger ones anyway] so they just do their own thing - which is usually to sit out the back and not bother... Giving riding instructions is an under-rated side of the trainer's art imo.
Instructions to NH jockeys have to be a lot more flexible than to flat jocks though, surely?
A jump jockey has to use his head much more often as a race unfolds.
Riding horses which stop when in front very tough under either code.
Some trainers get an idea in their head about a horse, instruct accordingly, and the jock has to follow it no matter what he thinks, even if he's ridden the horse a few times. Some trainers are better at giving the jock alternatives - "If they go quick up front, do such and such.... If you can lay up well and good, but if not..." Etc.
At least one trainer I know used to do this - but he's now decided jocks are too thick to keep the alts in their head that long, he reckons they can only manage one set of instructions, for better or worse! He says giving them alts just confuses them [the younger ones anyway] so they just do their own thing - which is usually to sit out the back and not bother... Giving riding instructions is an under-rated side of the trainer's art imo.
Instructions to NH jockeys have to be a lot more flexible than to flat jocks though, surely?
A jump jockey has to use his head much more often as a race unfolds.
Riding horses which stop when in front very tough under either code.
Why Bobbyjo? Which bit and whose post? - several views have been expressed.
And why say that anyway? - if it's a waste of time to reply, then why reply?
Btw I didn't say I agreed with any of the above views of the trainer of my acquaintance, but I think it's interesting what different ideas there are on on the subject. Personally I agreed with Cantoris - that jockeys are much maligned, often for only doing their job: a large part of which is to follow instructions - and we don't usually know what they are
If you are referring to the attack on Davy Russell's competence, then I disagree - I think he should be defended
And why say that anyway? - if it's a waste of time to reply, then why reply?
Btw I didn't say I agreed with any of the above views of the trainer of my acquaintance, but I think it's interesting what different ideas there are on on the subject. Personally I agreed with Cantoris - that jockeys are much maligned, often for only doing their job: a large part of which is to follow instructions - and we don't usually know what they are
If you are referring to the attack on Davy Russell's competence, then I disagree - I think he should be defended
U
useful
Guest
Headstrong, I think it is very safe to assume Bobbyjo is referring to me not you. It isn't the first time he has made such a dismissive remark to me without providing his own argument.
Galileo, you are right, Davy Russell rode him the day he won in Nov 2006 - and did the job properly.
Del Boy I don't like being accused of being racist and your remarks can certainly be construed as such.
As I have told people on here before, I live in the UK but was born in Ireland (Strandhill to be exact), was raised in the UK but hold Irish citizenship and an Irish passport. I am a Catholic and a proud supporter of Celtic Football Club and Sligo Rovers. I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST ANYBODY BY VIRTUE OF NATIONALITY OR RACE! I argue and defend my position, page after page. So do the people who choose to engage me in debate. That is what a forum is about. You have conveniently ignored my positive comments about Coleman Sweeney, and a number of Irish Jockeys based in the UK.
Garney, watch the race again. IN the two in the straight first time, plus the fence going away from the stands Kerryhead got in too close and propped - Russell had the ideal opportunity during this crucial stage of the race to start putting Kerryhead's suspect jumping to the test. Surely he could see how Sweeney was having to ride the horse into every fence. As is so often siad of tight finishes McCoy wins, in this race you swap jockeys, you change the result.
Cantoris, I don't know his instructions, but good jockeys are able to adapt their tactics during a race, and have the bottle to go against instructions if they think it will win them the race. In actual fact (although the ATR video doesn't show this), Russell appeared to attempt to get a flyer as the tapes rose and got the first fence totally wrong. So there is something to be said for considering that maybe the instructions were to be handy given the drop in distance.
Galileo, you are right, Davy Russell rode him the day he won in Nov 2006 - and did the job properly.
Del Boy I don't like being accused of being racist and your remarks can certainly be construed as such.
As I have told people on here before, I live in the UK but was born in Ireland (Strandhill to be exact), was raised in the UK but hold Irish citizenship and an Irish passport. I am a Catholic and a proud supporter of Celtic Football Club and Sligo Rovers. I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST ANYBODY BY VIRTUE OF NATIONALITY OR RACE! I argue and defend my position, page after page. So do the people who choose to engage me in debate. That is what a forum is about. You have conveniently ignored my positive comments about Coleman Sweeney, and a number of Irish Jockeys based in the UK.
Garney, watch the race again. IN the two in the straight first time, plus the fence going away from the stands Kerryhead got in too close and propped - Russell had the ideal opportunity during this crucial stage of the race to start putting Kerryhead's suspect jumping to the test. Surely he could see how Sweeney was having to ride the horse into every fence. As is so often siad of tight finishes McCoy wins, in this race you swap jockeys, you change the result.
Cantoris, I don't know his instructions, but good jockeys are able to adapt their tactics during a race, and have the bottle to go against instructions if they think it will win them the race. In actual fact (although the ATR video doesn't show this), Russell appeared to attempt to get a flyer as the tapes rose and got the first fence totally wrong. So there is something to be said for considering that maybe the instructions were to be handy given the drop in distance.
U
useful
Guest
Sorry Gareth, what do you mean by "all the evidence that shows your claims about what is permissable on here to be rubbish".
U
useful
Guest
Oh, I get you.
I didn't mean to sound flippant, I was simply exhausted by being put to the sword by TH's 3 Musketeers yet again (although Melendez still needs a bit of loose schooling I fancy!).
As I said I took your word for it, but thus far in all of my threads about jocks I have failed to garner any support for my theories. Maybe I am just plain wrong. Who knows.
I talk through my pocket sometimes, but not all the time. Pocket Talking is about the worst crime anyone can commit in forum land!
It does however seem to me that in the Emerald Isle there is an elite group of connections who seem beyond criticism by their own population. Maybe it is a cultural thing. The English are known for loving nothing better than to slate people when they make it to the top. As I have been raised in England maybe I suffer from this? Whereas Ireland is much more supportive of its "heroes". But the problem here is this can sometimes blind people in terms of objectivity.
Or maybe I am just a scummy betting shop punter who has no right to an opinion?
I didn't mean to sound flippant, I was simply exhausted by being put to the sword by TH's 3 Musketeers yet again (although Melendez still needs a bit of loose schooling I fancy!).
As I said I took your word for it, but thus far in all of my threads about jocks I have failed to garner any support for my theories. Maybe I am just plain wrong. Who knows.
I talk through my pocket sometimes, but not all the time. Pocket Talking is about the worst crime anyone can commit in forum land!
It does however seem to me that in the Emerald Isle there is an elite group of connections who seem beyond criticism by their own population. Maybe it is a cultural thing. The English are known for loving nothing better than to slate people when they make it to the top. As I have been raised in England maybe I suffer from this? Whereas Ireland is much more supportive of its "heroes". But the problem here is this can sometimes blind people in terms of objectivity.
Or maybe I am just a scummy betting shop punter who has no right to an opinion?
Harbinger
At the Start
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
- Messages
- 11,282
I think that's pretty far from the truth. Plenty of people in Ireland are well capable of savaging the succesful amongst them.
I don't think horse-racing is a good medium to judge such a thing through, though. There's not too much "build 'em up and knock 'em down" in the Racing Post, is there?
U
useful
Guest
I was more referring to the people rather than the media. The Betfair Forum probably the best example!
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Whilst we are on the topic of slaggimg off jockey's, what was the panel's view of Dickie Johnson's ride on Fabulous Jet in the 2.20 Sandown?
Scalded cat doesn't come into it...................numpty (not pocket-talking BTW)!!!
Scalded cat doesn't come into it...................numpty (not pocket-talking BTW)!!!
EC1
On a break
I think King John's Castle's form when Favourite tells you all you need to know about the horse
P1PU222
Rather be a layer than player no matter who is on it.
P1PU222
Rather be a layer than player no matter who is on it.
U
useful
Guest
EC1, I have learnt my lesson. Davy Russell on short priced favs NEVER AGAIN. To be fair I could swayed by the vastly shorter SP than the forecast tissue. I concluded the maximum confidence behind the horse suggested the race would be run to suit.
Colin, I missed the Fab Jet race. I backed him at Taunton the other day, but forgot about him today - just as well it seems.
Why wasn't Paul "come on down" Moloney on board?
Was "Dickie" giving us a re-enactment of his never to be forgotten RSA ride on Mr Mulligan???
Colin, I missed the Fab Jet race. I backed him at Taunton the other day, but forgot about him today - just as well it seems.
Why wasn't Paul "come on down" Moloney on board?
Was "Dickie" giving us a re-enactment of his never to be forgotten RSA ride on Mr Mulligan???
U
useful
Guest
An eloquent and typically informed repsonse Del Boy. Reminiscent of your namesake.
EC1
On a break
but to be fair Useful he is right
you completely ignored the point of my post and proceeded to still blame the jockey when it's clear from the horse's form that he is NOT one to take a short price about
i doubt you will get people replying in any informed or constructive way if all you do is ignore what they say.
do you purposely ignore what people are trying to get across?
you completely ignored the point of my post and proceeded to still blame the jockey when it's clear from the horse's form that he is NOT one to take a short price about
i doubt you will get people replying in any informed or constructive way if all you do is ignore what they say.
do you purposely ignore what people are trying to get across?
trackside528
At the Start
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
- Messages
- 5,377
All is forgiven.
King John's Castle dogged it yesterday. Ideally suited by further, but then so is Kerryhead Windfarm. Nothing Russell could have done.
U
useful
Guest
EC1 what the hell are you talking about?
Try reading what was written.
Del Boy said "Useful. Davys a better jockey than you. Hes better than most people.
Its becoming increasingly obvious you have a problem with all things irish, our jockeys, our racing, our hurdlers, and indeed our posters, not the other way around. Just because you have an opinion that you will argue and argue and argue for page after page, does not mean your correct."
I addressed all of his points including the deeply insulting accusation of racism.
I am sure if I accused anybody on here of being racist I would be banned immediately.
I did not address your reply as it seemed to have little relevance to the points I was making. I do not believe the horse dogged it, and supported my theory about the tactics using an impressive and positive win in Nov 2006. Just writing form numbers is meaningless. The relevant value of each performance needs to be considered which is what I have done.
crazyhorse
At the Start
Colin, Yes i watched the Fab Jet race and the jockey tried to repeat what Moloney had done a few days before namely set off like a bat out of hell and nick it, but Moloney did the perfect thing and gave the horse a breather which enabled him to win easily! But its always easier at Taunton and Hereford than at Sandown eh?
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Did Moloney go off as fast as Dickie did yesterday?
I take your point about Sandown being stiffer than both Hereford and Taunton, but if we know that, you would think the jockey would take it into consideration and just allow the horse to reserve some energy.
In my opinion, Johnson went off at a ridiculously fast pace and the horse had no chance of fighting off any challenge.
I take your point about Sandown being stiffer than both Hereford and Taunton, but if we know that, you would think the jockey would take it into consideration and just allow the horse to reserve some energy.
In my opinion, Johnson went off at a ridiculously fast pace and the horse had no chance of fighting off any challenge.
EC1
On a break
I did not address your reply as it seemed to have little relevance to the points I was making
so clearly demonstrating how the horse consistentlyfails to run up to expectations doesn't explain it losing again...never mind the rider involved?
ok...if you can't see relevance to you actually blaming a jockey when the horse is a dog..then there isn't much point me responding in future.
i'll leave you with your grudge against a jockey
so clearly demonstrating how the horse consistentlyfails to run up to expectations doesn't explain it losing again...never mind the rider involved?
ok...if you can't see relevance to you actually blaming a jockey when the horse is a dog..then there isn't much point me responding in future.
i'll leave you with your grudge against a jockey
Msybe they were and maybe they weren't but it is pure specualtion. my point is not about the ride on King Johns Castle, it is a general point that some of us think we are privy to information we are not about a horse, his preparation and instructions. I have experienced this is a very public manner through one horse and recently with another horse and all I will say is that if people only knew some extra information from the inside, they might not make some of the statements they do. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, some are just more informed than others because of information they have. I think at this stage, the debate has reached a conclusion. There is not going to be any more information unless it is made public which will change anyones opinion and he is the type of horse you could argue plenty about.