Farage.

[icebreaker]

Did he "bottle it" regarding Newark ?
All the tv commentators this morning are saying so.

But I think his reasoning on SKY a little while ago made perfect sense -- wants to focus on canvassing nationwide for the Euro elections in three weeks time; and considers it an insult to the electoate to parachute himself into a constituency in which he has no family ties or knowledge of.

What you think?

 

[clivex]

Sounds fair enough.

Like many I certainly do not wish to ever see ukip hold any real power but (as he acknowledges himself) their role in questioning the eu is vital

Across Europe I want to see anti eu parties make a strong showing and possiblly ukip can lead the way

I'm actually in favour of staying in the eu but only as a trading block with very limited powers. Ideally it needs to be scaled back heavily. There would be with massive savings in costs . It's self serving and as the euro crisis shows,often a waste of space.

Nigel lawsons article on this a year ago hit nail on head for me. We should get out now unless further integration is stopped and ideally the whole edifice is brought down to size.

There's a lot not to like about ukip as a group of individuals but it's playing an important role

 

[Grey]

I'm actually in favour of staying in the eu but only as a trading block with very limited powers. Ideally it needs to be scaled back heavily. There would be with massive savings in costs . It's self serving and as the euro crisis shows,often a waste of space.

The logic of your position is that you don't really want to stay in the EU, unless you can block it from making further progress, and I think that is the position of most British people. There is too much baggage from the time of Henry VIII on to allow the British ever feel comfortable in an entity which gives so much power to outsiders.

Given this situation I think the best outcome for both the UK and the rest of the EU would be for you to have looser political links while retaining close trading relations.

 

[Euronymous]

There is too much baggage from the time of Henry VIII on to allow the British ever feel comfortable in an entity which gives so much power to outsiders.

This sort of position that we rail against the faceless bureaucrats of Brussels but are willing to let the chinless Eton brigade and the big corporations **** us whilst we smile and take it.

Bottom line is the majority of this countries opinions on Europe and immigration are formed by whichever rag they read. It's a country full of mongs.

 

[clivex]

The logic of your position is that you don't really want to stay in the EU, unless you can block it from making further progress, and I think that is the position of most British people. There is too much baggage from the time of Henry VIII on to allow the British ever feel comfortable in an entity which gives so much power to outsiders.

Given this situation I think the best outcome for both the UK and the rest of the EU would be for you to have looser political links while retaining close trading relations.

Progress? Why is integration "progress"? The point is that progress should be cutting the pointless

Why do you think this is is uniquely british and wrapped up in history? Well I can guess but frankly this coukd be and should be a movement right across the eu.

its the arrogance of the position that there is supposedly only one way forward thats crap

 

[Grasshopper]

The logic of your position is that you don't really want to stay in the EU, unless you can block it from making further progress, and I think that is the position of most British people. There is too much baggage from the time of Henry VIII on to allow the British ever feel comfortable in an entity which gives so much power to outsiders.

Given this situation I think the best outcome for both the UK and the rest of the EU would be for you to have looser political links while retaining close trading relations.

I think this is an unusually narrow-minded view from your good self, Arthur, tainted (I use the term in the softest sense) to a degree - no doubt - by your position within the European 'machine'.

In my view, rhetoric labelling an entire nation as shackled by events 600 years old and unable to think beyond that, is just as empty as UKIPs claim about us being descended-upon by 200 million Europeans looking 'to take our jobs'.

As clivex rightly states, anti-EU sentiment prevails in many other European states, and outing the UK as uniquely sceptical/seperatist is both misleading and unfair.

Bear in mind that exit from the EU - should it ever come to pass - will be due to a multitude of different, often unrelated, factors; not just because people in the UK view themselves as always having being 'apart'. More generally, I find that behemoth institutions generally fail to self-correct (look no further than the Banking industry), and need to be compelled to do so. To that extent, questioning the reach of such institutions is both necessary and healthy - though it's onky natural that Eurocrats would view it differently.

 

[marbler]

Grey, if we did do everything Europe requested, what type of country would we start to look like 20 years from now?

Clivex, if we did everything Farage wanted, what type of a country would be in 20 years?

I'm interested in the future, not the past.

What the EU has in its favour is that it has created the monster which now needs a monster to control the monster that was created in the first place. E.G One bureaucrat creates a law which the next bureaucrat can renegotiate in a year or twos' time. I put it to you lot that very little will change anyway, both Labours and Tory's position will become closer and closer, and it just doesn't really matter what UKIP voters think other than to be good entertainment at their Soaps Boxs'.

 

[clivex]

Grey, if we did do everything Europe requested, what type of country would we start to look like 20 years from now?

Clivex, if we did everything Farage wanted, what type of a country would be in 20 years?

I'm interested in the future, not the past.

What the EU has in its favour is that it has created the monster which now needs a monster to control the monster that was created in the first place. E.G One bureaucrat creates a law which the next bureaucrat can renegotiate in a year or twos' time. I put it to you lot that very little will change anyway, both Labours and Tory's position will become closer and closer, and it just doesn't really matter what UKIP voters think other than good entertainment at their Soaps Boxs'.

Neither to my liking and that is the point

 

[marbler]

Neither to my liking and that is the point

Wouldn't be to my liking either, just thought by clearly defining what the two polar opposites were, we might have a better idea what the middle ground actually is, I probably should have watched the recent debates.

 

[clivex]

I think this is an unusually narrow-minded view from your good self, Arthur, tainted (I use the term in the softest sense) to a degree - no doubt - by your position within the European 'machine'.

In my view, rhetoric labelling an entire nation as shackled by events 600 years old and unable to think beyond that, is just as empty as UKIPs claim about us being descended-upon by 200 million Europeans looking 'to take our jobs'.

As clivex rightly states, anti-EU sentiment prevails in many other European states, and outing the UK as uniquely sceptical/seperatist is both misleading and unfair.

Bear in mind that exit from the EU - should it ever come to pass - will be due to a multitude of different, often unrelated, factors; not just because people in the UK view themselves as always having being 'apart'. More generally, I find that behemoth institutions generally fail to self-correct (look no further than the Banking industry), and need to be compelled to do so. To that extent, questioning the reach of such institutions is both necessary and healthy - though it's onky natural that Eurocrats would view it differently.

Agree with all that although you can argue that the bankers have their shareholders to be accountable to

The problem so far has been that anti eu sentiment has been tied up across europe and in the uk with the hard right or far left. That has led many to believe that acceptance of the eu (as it develops) is the default moderate position

But I think this is shifting now with the handling of the euro being a prime case of virtually all british parties calling it right and the euros fundamentally not "knowing what they are doing"

Naturally they cannot in most eyes be trusted with further legislation when they made a complete mess of the biggest piece of work to date

the default position of the defenders with no case to present is to allude to xenophobia (fear of "outsiders") in opponents

Thats not good enough

 

[Desperate Dan]

UKIP do seem to have, err, momentum

 

[Grey]

I'm sorry, Grassy, but it is not unfair or misleading to say that the UK is more eurosceptic and more anti-EU than other countries. Opinion polls on a range of EU-related issues going back 40 years will confirm this, both main parties have a significant eurosceptic wing and the Prime Minister himself is highly ambivalent. If the Washington masters had not ordered Cameron to hang on in there he'd already be half way out the door.

clivex, your attitude to Europe is like the spinster aunt who insists on being taken to the pub to be part of the fun but then objects to drink being served. Ireland joined at the same time as you but nobody told us it was just a trading bloc and would always remain that way. For us it was always going to about the spending on agriculture and the social and regional funds and the spreading of economic benefits to the periphery.

A few years ago more than one person on here, reflecting what was a pretty mainstream view in the anglophone world at the time, confidently expected the euro to have collapsed by now. It has been saved, for the time being at least, by a slow process of integrating controls on major banks and national budgetary policy. This is how Europe usually works, people deciding to pool sovereignty when they recognise they need to in order to achieve a goal.

The British were probably right to stay out, from their perspective, because they have no particular interest in being part of a single currency. But that does not mean everyone else was wrong.

 

[BennyB]

I'm actually in favour of staying in the eu but only as a trading block with very limited powers. Ideally it needs to be scaled back heavily. There would be with massive savings in costs . It's self serving and as the euro crisis shows,often a waste of space.

Pretty much sums up my view. Farage is a prick though and UKIP will only ever damage their own cause by taking votes from the Tories.


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[BennyB]

I'm in portugal at the moment. They desperately need a weaker currency. The euro is a flawed concept.


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[clivex]

It's not flawed. It's failed .

Grey. I have no real problem with the terms under which we joined and some progress since. You just like to assume that any criticism of the eu is automatically against the whole concept

But it's clear that further integrationi is not welcome. I think recent past events pretty well prove that?

I am also for rigorous scrutiny of any tax payers spending on pointless staffing and projects. I believe that this will increasingly be demanded

I think the British were right to stay out of the failed single currency because they knew what they were talking about. And that was cross parties. It's has nothing to do with pie in sky projects but the fact that it was a disaster. Of course everyone else was wrong. What more evidence does anyone need?

No not everyone else. You are not even getting the facts nearly right. Sweden and Denmark called it right too

 

[clivex]

Pretty much sums up my view. Farage is a prick though and UKIP will only ever damage their own cause by taking votes from the Tories.


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UKIP are taking as many from labour though. That has been the surprise development

The EU can be likened to the classic text book example of business failure. Two elements come up time and again. Overexpansion (powers and states) and dabbling on projects or sectors you dont fully understand (economics)

Stick to what you do best.

Once the directors of such an enterprise make such an almighty fck up why should the shareholders or lenders (us) trust them to make any big decisions again? Not only did they not do their homework they didnt even monitor to even a basic level the disaster that was unfolding

 

[Hamm]

It's hardly a surprise development. It's been seen in recent years that far right parties appeal as much to working class former left wing voters as those who traditionally vote on the right.

For what it's worth, whilst I don't think questioning the EU is a bad thing, the attitude in the UK goes far beyond that. I also hope they leave, but not on their terms, as they seem to believe they can pick and choose which parts of the EU relationship they want, which frankly is an incredible position to believe they can take. The problem with Britain, is two-fold - a closed, island mentality and the still lingering belief that they are a world power of some sort.

 

[clivex]

complete anglophobic crap

Not surprising of course

for a start "they"can pick and choose (as have denmark and sweden) whether to be party to certain elements. Not only that, every country has the right of opt outs. Its not just "thinking" its is entitlement. Nothing "incredible" about actioning your rights

And what xenophobic slur do you have in mind for Denmark and Sweden? Clearly its only a "mentality" that made them opt out a FAILED project. Come on ????

Maybe you should question why certain countries opted out of running their economies with any degree of control? Rather than worry about a country "opting out" with clearly no impact on any other state , think about the cost to rest of the union of the lazy boneheaded PIGS?

 

[clivex]

Final word on EU which I suspect would sum up a substantial opinion right across the EU and comes from a german minister.

I suspect that overall the tide is turning.

A senior Berlin government adviser is quoted in the paper as saying: "There is too much lifestyle regulation coming out of Brussels. It is important that the EU looks at its core business in times of crisis and does whatever it can to promote economic development. Germany might be prepared to countenance the abrogation of some secondary legislation."

 

[Grasshopper]

A few years ago more than one person on here, reflecting what was a pretty mainstream view in the anglophone world at the time, confidently expected the euro to have collapsed by now. It has been saved, for the time being at least, by a slow process of integrating controls on major banks and national budgetary policy. This is how Europe usually works, people deciding to pool sovereignty when they recognise they need to in order to achieve a goal.

A somewhat rose-tinted view, imo, Art.

What you define as "a slow process of integrating controls" effectively means "dancing to the tune of the ECB and Bundestag" in practical terms. Insofar as the Euro is concerned, it basically equates to centralised obsorption of fiscal and monetary policy by stealth.....or a de-facto cessation of sovereignty in these areas, for the countries most adversely affected by the near-collapse of the currency.

I acknowledge there was always the desire/threat of greater integration/federalisation, but it's essentially being implemented at the point of a gun (due to circumstance) rather than via any discernable democratic choice for the populations of the countries in question.

As I've said before, some governments might view this as a good thing.....indeed, their respective electorates may agree.......but let's not dress it up as if this was in-plan all along.

Maybe you're right about attitudes to the EU being particularly sceptical in the UK. Indeed, I might even be inclined to agree with your assertion that history is the significant factor in these attitudes. Bear in mind, however, that our history also includes several centuries of functioning democracy (of various shades), and scepticism towards the EU is almost certainly is informed to a degree by an assessment that the trend in Europe would dilute rather than enhance it.

You can't just paint the UK as a country of Little Englanders who hate Johnny Foreigner. It's significantly more complex than that.

 

[clivex]

I acknowledge there was always the desire/threat of greater integration/federalisation,

Agreed. Germany have taken the lead on this before.

In 1939

 

[Grasshopper]

Agreed. Germany have taken the lead on this before.

In 1939

:lol:

Quality. #neverdisappoints

:lol:

 

[clivex]

Bet some were pulling faces though..

Estimated that 30% of votes in euros will go to parties campaigning on withdrawl. Add to that parties/voters that do not wish to see more bureaucracy then what are we looking at?

Blows apart the ridiculous suggestion that hostility to the whole ovetblown edifice is a largely british

 

[Grey]

I didn't say anti-EU sentiment is a largely British thing, but I did say that British sentiment is anti-EU to a greater extent than elsewhere.

As has already been alluded to, in other Member States it tends to be the hard right and left who campaign to withdraw from the EU. I got an election leaflet from the Vlaams Belang today which contains supportive messages from Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders. I'm not sure whether Farage belongs with those people - some of his activists would - but the mainstream of anti-EU opinion in the UK certainly does not.

That is my point. Plenty of reasonable people in the UK don't want to be part of the EU and there are reasons to do with history and economics which lead them to feel that way. All I'm saying is the best thing for the UK given these circumstances could be to negotiate an exit strategy.

The idea of staying in the EU in order to neuter it won't work, in my opinion. It's one thing having the right to opt out of parts of EU activity, but trying to prevent other Member States deepening co-operation is another thing.

 

[clivex]

If 30% of EU voters are ready to vote for extremist parties (and iis 30% discounting UKIP) campaigning on a platform of immediately leaving the EU then the EU needs to have a good think about what it stansds for because you can guarantee that there will be many many more voters also very sceptical about continuing membership let alone the supposedly irreversible drive towards some sort of superstate

"deepening co-operation" in their eyes is bail outs

I would reckon that Britains stance would be very close to a huge number of voters across europe. Euro is a failure and no to more integration

If the leaders keep pushing through their undemocratic edicts and keep adding layers of expensive and pointless bureaucracy then there will be a kick back

And if( as is perfectly possible), the euro collapses again, then that will be that in the eyes of voters right across the bloated project