T
Toobe
Guest
My God I've become a senior member. Is this an indication that I
a) talk to much
b) Am over opinionated
c) both the above
a) talk to much
b) Am over opinionated
c) both the above
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Yes, but don't worry about it, you are definitely(or is it definately, I'm becoming convinced I carn't spell that word) not on your own.
T
Toobe
Guest
Jolly good. I think it's i not a
No, Warbler, you read your post again: ".... but why do they not compete... " - they do bloody compete! There's no other implication in that you're asking why women don't compete in eventing, etc.?
Hallo... Remedial Grammar? I've got one for you!
No, make that two: it's 'your' knowledge, not 'you're' knowledge, trackside.
Hallo... Remedial Grammar? I've got one for you!
No, make that two: it's 'your' knowledge, not 'you're' knowledge, trackside.
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Ah but Warbler's never professed to have any knowledge of three day eventing.
I had actually heard of Mary King, but wouldn't have been able to name her yet alone identify her. I've heard of Princess Tindall. I've got a feeling there's a Pippa somewhere and Jordan of course, and I reckon Sheila Wilcox might be from Birmingham and used to front an early 80's punk band
Shadow Leader
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
I have no idea if they've changed the rules or not but I was under the belief she may not have qualified since one of the qualifying conditions was that all jockeys had ridden at least one winner. She may of course have ridden a winner, I remain to be corrected on that one.
I do believe that [much as I don't agree with the post] Warbler was suggesting that women stick to three day eventing rather than go into racing, rather than saying women don't event.
No, but you are a little bit nearer than krizon at least. What I was asking for, was an explanation as to
"why do they not just compete, but usually with distinction, in cross country?" (there you are Jon I've underlined the word you failed to read)
If strength is such a crucial difference in race riding. Surely cross country goes on longer? about 15-20 mins more?, and you still need to be able to stoke a horse up if racing the clock etc yet it wouldn't seem to be an issue in cross-country? Are men not interested in it? I'm not, and I've never met a man who is?
Now you mention it Shadz, how would a top female jockey get on in terms of their competitiveness if they did decide that they'd had enough of race riding and wanted to do cross country? or any jockey come to think of it? and to reverse the question, would a top show jumper/ cross country rider be able to turn their had to NH? (I would give you some names by way of example - but don't know any - is there a Mark Todd still knocking around?)
"why do they not just compete, but usually with distinction, in cross country?" (there you are Jon I've underlined the word you failed to read)
If strength is such a crucial difference in race riding. Surely cross country goes on longer? about 15-20 mins more?, and you still need to be able to stoke a horse up if racing the clock etc yet it wouldn't seem to be an issue in cross-country? Are men not interested in it? I'm not, and I've never met a man who is?
Now you mention it Shadz, how would a top female jockey get on in terms of their competitiveness if they did decide that they'd had enough of race riding and wanted to do cross country? or any jockey come to think of it? and to reverse the question, would a top show jumper/ cross country rider be able to turn their had to NH? (I would give you some names by way of example - but don't know any - is there a Mark Todd still knocking around?)
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T
Toobe
Guest
I don't see having a women's series as backward at all, other sports do, I feel it may gather more interest and draw more women who would not necessarily follow racing to do so. On that basis it may be more dicriminatory not to provide a seperate series for both sexes. Alternatively an all female race apart from a token male on the crapiest horse.
Well, could you write out a post which does say what you mean, Warbler, so that even I - poor, simple wummun that I am - can understand it? If it's nearer to what Shadz is saying, you're in the deepest doo-doo of your adult life! Ever!
Shadow Leader
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
Anybody who has gained the level of fitness required to race ride would be far fitter than eventing riders, Warbler. As for showjumping or dressage, you really don't have to be that fit (comparatively speaking) to compete.
T
Toobe
Guest
Know they're the spoilt brats, not the competitive sportsman.
Got two girls on my books and one of them has rode 9 winners now and is starting to get a few outside rides for a couple of decent trainers. She is getting a few more now and had a good winner on Friday in an open apprentice race where she was up against a lot of the leading apprentices. When I ring up some trainers for rides now, they seem to have heard of her and actually consider her. The key I think with the girls is once they get a few winners trainers start to notice them.
Now that begs an obvious question then (I'm sorry I can't use the word interesting in the context of eventing).
What you're suggesting is that this is a sport that's been coasting then for years and hasn't had it's boundaries pushed back? Every now and then someone comes along and takes a sport to a new level and achieves standards hitherto unthought of. So any jockey who'd developed the fitness/ sharpness, or muscle definition needed to ride aggresive finishes at speed, would simply slaughter the best that cross country has to offer?
T
Toobe
Guest
You have to build the correct level of fitness for any sport. Even chess players have to keep their mind correct and the fatest of darts players needs to hold and present his shot with precision. There is never one attribute to perfect to win.
trudij
Senior Jockey
Just to throw my hat in the ring, (and probably get shouted down immediately) its a different kind of fit you need to be to do the XC stage of an event (well - the whole thing, but we are talking specifically about XC!). Just the same as you dont train sprinters the same as you do dressage horses, cos its not the same thing at all - you dont have to be the same kind of fit to do eventing as you would to be a jockey. Dressage horses are very very fit too - but you wouldnt be able to ask them to gallop like you do a racehorse - similarly, you wouldnt find a fit racehorse able to work like a dressage horse for long, they simply arent the same kind of fitness requirements.
They did and eventers/jockeys challenge back in about 1989/90ish that was shown on National day, and it was suprising to see how they both came back saying how hard each others dicipline was. (and i still think they cheated,cos the eventers were allowed to do the national fences on their own horses(though one died at Bechers), though the jocks went round Burley (i think it was) on eventers!)
Its like anything - progress means that there are always people pushing boundaries, thats why the pipe team did so well at first, and why the mark todds (who yes,far as i know is still training racehorses as well as back eventing) will always be superb. but if competitive riding was as easy as being the most mucular/fittest/aggressive, it wouldnt be anywhere near as hard to ride the winners!
God I hope that reads like I mean it, but im sure someone will point out if it doesnt
They did and eventers/jockeys challenge back in about 1989/90ish that was shown on National day, and it was suprising to see how they both came back saying how hard each others dicipline was. (and i still think they cheated,cos the eventers were allowed to do the national fences on their own horses(though one died at Bechers), though the jocks went round Burley (i think it was) on eventers!)
Its like anything - progress means that there are always people pushing boundaries, thats why the pipe team did so well at first, and why the mark todds (who yes,far as i know is still training racehorses as well as back eventing) will always be superb. but if competitive riding was as easy as being the most mucular/fittest/aggressive, it wouldnt be anywhere near as hard to ride the winners!
God I hope that reads like I mean it, but im sure someone will point out if it doesnt
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EC1
On a break
thats just brought darts players "Not The 9'Oclock News" sketch to my mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHnBppccI0o
a classic
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trudij
Senior Jockey
Quite right, Troodles - I do understand you! There are quite different training regimes for them all (the horses), and quite different requirements from their end performances, so it's like comparing apples to oranges. Most racehorses need months just to get balanced and stop being one-sided for even a hack class, let alone work their way through dressage.
What annoys me about this 'weak women riders' myth is that, unless you're on a horse which is so unruly it's unrideable, most of the women can hold a horse as well as a chap can (although I've seen two chaps run away with this month!), because the animal will have a compression noseband stuck on it and its mouth firmly closed! Gone are the days of everyone trying to control some mad bastid with just a simple jointed snaffle in its open, yawing gob - thank God! So, thanks to the aids (and three cheers for the Dexter ring bit!) available, muscular prowess isn't A1 on the riding agenda.
Horses - race or otherwise - are also mental, as much as physical, creatures. They get upset in the ring, upset going to post, upset in the stalls, and upset during their race. Strength isn't needed in any of these instances, and it doesn't matter whether you've got Cathy Gannon or Neil Callan up. Being able to respond to the situation appropriately and try to correct it does, though. And you can be a woman, a man, or a mouse, but if you can't respond to the needs of the situation effectively, what you are doesn't matter one iota. Thinking is what tends to win or lose chances - not a lack of biceps.
What annoys me about this 'weak women riders' myth is that, unless you're on a horse which is so unruly it's unrideable, most of the women can hold a horse as well as a chap can (although I've seen two chaps run away with this month!), because the animal will have a compression noseband stuck on it and its mouth firmly closed! Gone are the days of everyone trying to control some mad bastid with just a simple jointed snaffle in its open, yawing gob - thank God! So, thanks to the aids (and three cheers for the Dexter ring bit!) available, muscular prowess isn't A1 on the riding agenda.
Horses - race or otherwise - are also mental, as much as physical, creatures. They get upset in the ring, upset going to post, upset in the stalls, and upset during their race. Strength isn't needed in any of these instances, and it doesn't matter whether you've got Cathy Gannon or Neil Callan up. Being able to respond to the situation appropriately and try to correct it does, though. And you can be a woman, a man, or a mouse, but if you can't respond to the needs of the situation effectively, what you are doesn't matter one iota. Thinking is what tends to win or lose chances - not a lack of biceps.
How long is a cross country course? how many obstacles do you typically jump? what sort of time would you expect to run one in? Do riders have minimum weights? and what do the typical riders weigh? I don't think I've noted too many mini jockey types without necessarily paying any attention in honesty though
leading up to;
What would be the effect of little 8 stone Jessica Chancer deciding that one day she felt lucky and thought she go out and attack a course at as close to racing speed she could?
leading up to;
What would be the effect of little 8 stone Jessica Chancer deciding that one day she felt lucky and thought she go out and attack a course at as close to racing speed she could?
That was where I was going with it Trudi (and the Pipe example occured to me - but I didn't dare use for fear of getting dragged off into another area).
If this is a sport which hasn't had its outer extremities challenged by way of alternative thinking, preparation, or approach to it, then surely it would be ripe for someone to simply apply disciplines and regimes from a related area and simply take it to another level?
Could someone for instance not start shaving 30 secs off a time simply by riding horses with a more aggresive attitude between fences and look to hit a few at racing speed and simply ping on to the next obstacle?