Fidel Castro
- Thread starter sunybay
- Start date
cricketfan
At the Start
Apart from the armed coup that took him to power, the slaughter of any political and military dissidents, the import of soviet missiles that nearly caused a third world war, the silencing of any anti-Castro press, and the poverty in which his subjects have to live, he's a lovely bloke.
Apart from the high life lived by the very rich under Battista, though, surely even Cuba's 'poor' today are better off than Cuba's poor then, c/f? I'm not defending Castro's tactics, except there's little point in executing a successful coup but allowing your opponents to live in the country to continually plot a counter-offensive? The rich bogged off to Miami, the poor remained and presumably are - if not by our bloated Western standards - considerably better off than under Battista's crushing regime?
What are you talking about, suny? Are you saying that Battista was a much better leader of his country because he loved America? That all of the gangsters who ran his night clubs were good people, and that there were no poor peons in Battista's Cuba?
One little exercise you might try some time, suny, is to discuss people's posts, rather than just try to belittle the people who write them. It's the reason I don't bother to reply to yours, because anyone who does is merely treated with arrogance and sneering.
If you plotted a coup d'etat and overthrew someone, you would be very stupid indeed to let your enemies sit around in their wealthy estates, plotting how to kill you, wouldn't you? Perhaps you should remind yourself of Machiavelli some time. Certainly there were unpleasant and cruel responses by Castro - but perhaps you should think about what he was trying to overcome.
Naturally, you will prefer Battista because he was pro-American (like you) and your posts give the impression that nothing America says or does is ever wrong. I don't believe that. I believe that Bush is an immoral and dangerous fool. I don't think that 'America' is.
One little exercise you might try some time, suny, is to discuss people's posts, rather than just try to belittle the people who write them. It's the reason I don't bother to reply to yours, because anyone who does is merely treated with arrogance and sneering.
If you plotted a coup d'etat and overthrew someone, you would be very stupid indeed to let your enemies sit around in their wealthy estates, plotting how to kill you, wouldn't you? Perhaps you should remind yourself of Machiavelli some time. Certainly there were unpleasant and cruel responses by Castro - but perhaps you should think about what he was trying to overcome.
Naturally, you will prefer Battista because he was pro-American (like you) and your posts give the impression that nothing America says or does is ever wrong. I don't believe that. I believe that Bush is an immoral and dangerous fool. I don't think that 'America' is.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Did anyone see the piece they did on Newsnight about Cuba`s Health Service?Probably the best in the world, your GP actually visits you when you`re healthy just to see how you`re doing.
Blimey, that's a bit radical, isn't it? Imagine a GP taking any pro-active interest in his list of patients over here! No, missed that, Euro. Sounds very interesting. Of course, it must be a terrible country - thousands of happy tourists must be wrong every year.
cricketfan
At the Start
What's the difference between one crushing regime and another ? If you're on the wrong side, you get crushed.
I just can't stand this popular notion that Castro, and his late mate Guevara, are modern-day saviours worthy of hero worship by the pink brigade. If Castro had been a right wing revolutionary, he'd have been quite rightly branded a brutal dictator.
In truth there is precious little difference between Castro, Saddam Hussein, Noriega, Galtieri etc.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The big difference is longevity cricketfan, tin-pot dictators like the ones you mentioned always get thrown out eventually, Fidel has survived for so long because he`s been an asset to his country.
By western standards the population do live in relative poverty, but the main causes of death are heart disease and cancer not crime, malnutrition or war. The average Cuban can expect to live longer than the average American...especially if that American is black...
All that, and imagine how much better off the populace would be if the Americans had lifted their embargo.
By western standards the population do live in relative poverty, but the main causes of death are heart disease and cancer not crime, malnutrition or war. The average Cuban can expect to live longer than the average American...especially if that American is black...
All that, and imagine how much better off the populace would be if the Americans had lifted their embargo.
.... yes, and weren't shooting themselves in their piety foot by maintaining Guantanamo Bay Detention Center on their Naval Base in... er... Cuba. You know, that funny little island the US Dept. of Defense calls a 'totalitarian communist regime'! Now what were we saying about repression? :brows:
Yes
Without the embargo they would be richer than Japan..........
Krizon
I dont think evrything USA does is correct but I am not either in your position that they are responsible of all the things in the world(sunamis,earthquakes,every war, diseases......)
I dont like Batista either but I can not imagine anyone destroying the economy of such a country and strealing more money than Castro has done.
Even though, in this world we leave I would not be surprised to see Castro nominated to win the Peace Nobel prize (as Arafat won).
Without the embargo they would be richer than Japan..........
Krizon
I dont think evrything USA does is correct but I am not either in your position that they are responsible of all the things in the world(sunamis,earthquakes,every war, diseases......)
I dont like Batista either but I can not imagine anyone destroying the economy of such a country and strealing more money than Castro has done.
Even though, in this world we leave I would not be surprised to see Castro nominated to win the Peace Nobel prize (as Arafat won).
Krizon
As you are so right
that is the reason for many people going in small boats from the oppression on USA to the great freedom of Castros Cuba.
These kind of antiamerican comments reminds to the film the Life of Brian when they were blaming Roman from everything in the world.
:lol:
As you are so right
that is the reason for many people going in small boats from the oppression on USA to the great freedom of Castros Cuba.
These kind of antiamerican comments reminds to the film the Life of Brian when they were blaming Roman from everything in the world.
:lol:
cricketfan
At the Start
Saddam was in charge of Iraq for 25 years. Did that make him an asset ?
Suny, I just can't talk to you. You are determined to tell people what they think and why they are so wrong to think it, rather than discuss the content of the topic. I could say that all of your thinking is coloured by your deep admiration for everything America does, but that would be obvious.
I have not defended Fidel's execution of over 3,000 dissidents, but whenever someone takes control by force, the repression by various methods of the opposition is a given. Do you think the Americans and the British are politely 'asking' the Taliban in Afghanistan to behave? However, because Batista was so much in the pocket of the Americans, yet ruling equally as undemocratically as Castro later, it's hard to know how many people he also had killed because they opposed him, and how many peons died in poverty through disease, while the rich aristocrats and well-to-do (who abandoned their country to live in Miami, Florida, etc.) played and enjoyed their high life.
Neither Batista nor Castro got to power by saying 'please' - they both took power and they both ruled autocratically. However, YOU seem to defend Batista purely on the grounds that Castro is a Communist and, therefore, anyone America hates must be worse than someone America loved. I just don't understand your stance.
I have not defended Fidel's execution of over 3,000 dissidents, but whenever someone takes control by force, the repression by various methods of the opposition is a given. Do you think the Americans and the British are politely 'asking' the Taliban in Afghanistan to behave? However, because Batista was so much in the pocket of the Americans, yet ruling equally as undemocratically as Castro later, it's hard to know how many people he also had killed because they opposed him, and how many peons died in poverty through disease, while the rich aristocrats and well-to-do (who abandoned their country to live in Miami, Florida, etc.) played and enjoyed their high life.
Neither Batista nor Castro got to power by saying 'please' - they both took power and they both ruled autocratically. However, YOU seem to defend Batista purely on the grounds that Castro is a Communist and, therefore, anyone America hates must be worse than someone America loved. I just don't understand your stance.
.................................1988......................1958
Life expectancy...........74..........................57
Infant mortality (per
1,000 births)...............13.3.......................60
Population per doctor...400........................5,000
Hospital beds..............65,824....................25,905
Literacy..................... 98%...................... 76%
Primary school
enrolment..................100%.......................56%
All of which of course has been achieved under sanctions imposed by the biggest economic super power in world history who have denounced the regime and placed them on the so called axis of evil!!! Mind you there is an important Cuban exile vote in Florida and the Governor is who.....? and his brother won the 2000 election there by how much.......?
The Americans have to tread carefully with Cuba and they know it, but they can certainly grandstand and broadcast on radio Marti etc but ultimately the Cuban people support their regime in my experience, and are actually extremely well educated about it and quite passionate in its defence.
You might do well to reflect Suny that it was your very own USA who pushed Castro's regime into a communist mould. The Commintern didn't endorse him and therefore most certainly wasn't Moscows choice. The original 1959 revolution was nationalistic (much in the spirit of Jose Marti) it was only in April 1961 and in a resposne to the Bay of Pigs that Castro announced the revolution to be socialist. It was only in September of the same year that Moscow signed a joint communique with Cuba. Had America not intervened then I think it's entirely probable that they would have gone a similar way to soft socialist regimes of south America. Of which there were none in those days!!! Well Chile did democratically elect one one in 1972/73?, but so impressed were the Americans with the idea of democracy that they killed him
Frankly you'd be well advised to look at Haiti Suny, by way of a like for like comparison, where an American sponsored dictatorial regime in the name of papa and baby doc duvallier have terrorised their respective population. The Tom Tom Mahut have murdered a damn sight more than Castro, (not as many as America mind you) and their economy is completely shot to pieces.
Life expectancy...........74..........................57
Infant mortality (per
1,000 births)...............13.3.......................60
Population per doctor...400........................5,000
Hospital beds..............65,824....................25,905
Literacy..................... 98%...................... 76%
Primary school
enrolment..................100%.......................56%
All of which of course has been achieved under sanctions imposed by the biggest economic super power in world history who have denounced the regime and placed them on the so called axis of evil!!! Mind you there is an important Cuban exile vote in Florida and the Governor is who.....? and his brother won the 2000 election there by how much.......?
The Americans have to tread carefully with Cuba and they know it, but they can certainly grandstand and broadcast on radio Marti etc but ultimately the Cuban people support their regime in my experience, and are actually extremely well educated about it and quite passionate in its defence.
You might do well to reflect Suny that it was your very own USA who pushed Castro's regime into a communist mould. The Commintern didn't endorse him and therefore most certainly wasn't Moscows choice. The original 1959 revolution was nationalistic (much in the spirit of Jose Marti) it was only in April 1961 and in a resposne to the Bay of Pigs that Castro announced the revolution to be socialist. It was only in September of the same year that Moscow signed a joint communique with Cuba. Had America not intervened then I think it's entirely probable that they would have gone a similar way to soft socialist regimes of south America. Of which there were none in those days!!! Well Chile did democratically elect one one in 1972/73?, but so impressed were the Americans with the idea of democracy that they killed him
Frankly you'd be well advised to look at Haiti Suny, by way of a like for like comparison, where an American sponsored dictatorial regime in the name of papa and baby doc duvallier have terrorised their respective population. The Tom Tom Mahut have murdered a damn sight more than Castro, (not as many as America mind you) and their economy is completely shot to pieces.
Krizon
I know my position(not being antiamerican) is very unpopular nowdays between most of Europe and all the Woody Allens fans in USA but I dont want to shut up what I think.
What happens is that being antisemit,antiamerican and pro castro is in fashion because the left wing has a supposed position of moral superiority but I am not for this movement.
what is fascinating is the ability to ruin country and to assesinate so many people the comunism has had in the 100 years and so many people in favour of that system.
They always have the excuse to blame USA, in the same way a rapist blame the girl because she wears a very short skirt.
I know my position(not being antiamerican) is very unpopular nowdays between most of Europe and all the Woody Allens fans in USA but I dont want to shut up what I think.
What happens is that being antisemit,antiamerican and pro castro is in fashion because the left wing has a supposed position of moral superiority but I am not for this movement.
what is fascinating is the ability to ruin country and to assesinate so many people the comunism has had in the 100 years and so many people in favour of that system.
They always have the excuse to blame USA, in the same way a rapist blame the girl because she wears a very short skirt.
Merlin the Magician
At the Start
CIGAR..makers 1958 100,000##### 2006............250 ####well you can't win em all can you..? 
:lol: 
:lol: cricketfan
At the Start
My problem is not necessarily with Castro per se. My problem is that some people appear to idolise Castro and Guevara.
They say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but to give iconic status to these men, I think shows a lack of historical understanding.
And as you said, Warbler,
They say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but to give iconic status to these men, I think shows a lack of historical understanding.
And as you said, Warbler,
but Castro is still a murdering dictator, just of a politcal persuasion that makes him 'socially acceptable' at the moment.
I don't, but I expect it to be lower. The Battista regime was very much based around a rich persons playground, and prostitution goes pretty well hand in hand.
Again in my experience the prostitutes tend to appear numerically more than they actaully are, given that they target the few western standard hotels. If you decide to drink with the locals in a casa particular (not sure on the spelling but that's what they call it certainly) then you won't encounter a single one. If however you stay within your compound then you'll be targetted by just about the most persistant Prossies I think I've ever come across. I should say however, that such is their health system and screening that if your are so minded to 'trade', then you're a bloody site safer in Cuba than here