Fidel Castro

Originally posted by prince regent@Aug 8 2006, 08:34 AM
im not disputing either the bravery of the russian PEOPLE and army and i acknowledge the great contribution they made to the defeat of hitler

but do you believe they fought for

aa russia (imho opinion) yes

or

bb for communissm (IMho) no they would have defended their country whom ever was in charge popular or otherwise


and heres a trivia question for you

can u name a soldier of any rank who has one the highest award of 2 countries in the same war but on opposite sides
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In the first case, its good to see you acknowledging the contribution of the Red army and the sacrifice the Soviet people made. Their's was frankly staggering compared to the Western allies, and I think its very difficult not to appreciate this. Indeed I've wondered on more than a few occasions what the outcome in Europe might have been without them? But back to your questions....

It's my best guess that certain parts of the Soviet Union were fighting for the revolution, as well as their country. Lets not forget the sacrifices that they'd made to achieve it, not so much in October and the events leading up to it (1905 onwards) but also the civil war that followed. Indeed when Lenin wrote 'the State and Revolution' the contradiction between dissolving aspects of the nation state, and the need to keep it strong in the face of those outside powers who sought to destroy it, was one of the contradictions he was never really able to reconcile imo.

I think the concept of Mother Russia would have been stronger in other areas of the Union, and those satellites that had national aspirations of their own would also have been less inclined towards the revolution. However, the revolution would have figured large I believe in the big cities of Leningrad, (whose people probably put up just about the most heroic collective effort of the entire war) and Moscow. If forced to generalise, and to a large extent you probably have to, then I'd probably split the division along an urban industrial, and rural agricultural divide. I think the fact they were defending their revolution added to their collective resistance, as indeed the fact that they were fighting not just Germany again for the second time in 30 years, but also a political philosophy that was the complete antithesis of their own.

As regards your triv Q

urm..... don't know. You've indicated the service, but that's not going to necessarily help me. My thoughts would be a double agent of some description, or some herocially gallant effort that was recognised by both sides by way of some kind of gentlemans agreement (which would point towards a colonial conflict of some description). My other thoughts were a trick question involving a film and hence actor. My other obtuse way of looking at it was the 'unknown soldier' I believe both France and the Soviet Union have honoured one? but 1812 apart, they've tended to fight on the same side
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Aug 8 2006, 11:32 AM
Personally I'm rather glad to live in a country that at no stage decided to shoot and hang people just because they were communists
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I think they would have done in 1919 St Georges Square. Interestingly, it was English troops that were sent to Glasgow to put down the Red Clydeside, the government feared that Scottish troops would have sided with the workers campaigning against a 57 hour working week.

I've got some recollection that Churchill had striking miners shot? but wouldn't like to swear to it as I can't for the live of me remember where I've got that from
 
Tonypandy ? Churchill sent troops in after riots over appalling pay and conditions and was hated by many in South Wales .

Don't recall him having miners shot though !
 
Personally I'm rather glad to live in a country that at no stage decided to shoot and hang people just because they were communists
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No, I believe you "off-shored" that nasty little task. (ref; James Connolly 1916 et seq)
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 6 2006, 11:18 PM
I figure that much more crowd-rousing and consciousness-raising was done by Tariq Ali in London, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Buffy St. Marie and similar songwriters, a number of the beat poets reading from their naughtily-worded works, playwrights, anarchic new tv shows and writers, as Che might have achieved. In the late 1950s-1970s forces for social change came as much, or more, from these sources and the revolting students here, in the US, and in not-so-gay Paree, as from anyone dressed in a black beret and carrying a gun. Whaddya think, Warbler?
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It's an interesting one. I think ultimately Che was someone who did it, rather than sang about it, which always meant he was likely to appeal to developing countries where the demand was more immediate, than he would western countries. There is of course a difference between protest and action, and I wonder to what extent groups like Bader Meinhoff or the Red Brigades might have plugged into this direct approach? but i think that for the most part we were collectively more comfortable with raising consciousness along the lines that you describe.

To the best of my knowledge, he was also one of the youngest revolutionary leaders (I think Nikolai Bukharin was in his mid 30's, and Rosa Luxemburg mid 40's?) but these were leaders who emerged before the widespread use of multi media. In that respect he was probably the first young and televisual radical idealist to emerge, and as with any iconography the image is often greater than the reality, as it comes to encapsulate a wider sens eof identity.

I think its necessary to see Che in a context of the 60's and other world events too. In many respects Soviet Communism might very well have been at its highwater mark, and was presenting a very serious and very real challenge to the West. In addtion, China had recently gone communist (albeit a different type of communism to Soviet style Marxist/ Leninism). To a lot of people it was indeed looking like a better model of government might exist, but it would be necessary to throw off the yoke of capitalist oppression first. In that respect he would have symbolised an element of hope, but this would have been stronger amongst the poor, and similarly, in poorer countries.

America lets us not forget was embroilled critically in a war that provided not only just a sense of focus for the disenchanted, but was also corrosively chipping away at the collective national self confidence, through their living rooms every evening. Just to add salt into the wounds, it was also a war that involved fighting, and losing to a communist force. In addition, as you point out the South was burning domestically, (and GW Bush was in the air defence national guard faced with the prospect of being shot down in Vietnam). The French let us not forget were also bogged down and failing in Algeria, and the UK was in a terminal retreat from empire. In many respects the classic ingredients for protest were there, and they would give rise to a whole genere of ways to articulate this.

Che's own contribution to Marxist literature and philosophy hardly marks him out for a place on the pantheon of great thinkers. "Guerrilla Strategy" and "Socialist Humanism and Revolution" are the only 2 texts that I have, and although I'm grateful for them being more academically accessible than some (Gramsci comes to mind :lol: ) They don't exactly serve to alter your mindset. Revolutionary leaders also have a habit of getting killed, which means that the singer songwriter/ poet artist, will always stand a better chance of enduring.

Ultimately, its always difficult to attribute the role of an indvidual, and I think in Che's case he was largely part of an epoch that enveloped a broad church of a collective global mood. A contributor who ultimately would appeal to impoverished peasents by way of offering a beacon of hope, and appeal to western students by way of mythical romance I suspect.
 
no double agent at all warbler

in fact the awnser is linked to my questions a or b

no trick question no unknown soldier

he was in fact glorified by one side and then despised by them when he got the second medal

u have in your posts mentioned the place where he gained his first medal

one more clue

titos partisans

ill give u another attempt

again a misconception the word soviet implies the occupied countries (republics) also fought along side the russians with the revolution in their hearts a piont of view stalin would like every one to believe

but we all know again this is false history all of his "republics" had puppet goverments of the nazis in place all supplied on a voluntry basis various units of the german military with "fighting men"

agreed all the republics including the ukraine white russia and the baltics were probably split between pro german pro russian and kick them all out factions

but if it wasnt for the brutality and the horrors inflicted upon them by their nazi occupiers and puppet goverments they would have at least probably been neutral they did at most times and still have an anti communist stance

the brutalities inflicted on these nations becuase of hitlers views of racial superority had also an effect on the military as guerella or terrorist groups which ever u call them sprung up making it impossible for the german military to use these countries for supply bases which they had wished to do so

therefore making the logistics in supplying the army in russia far more difficult than it needed to be

i could go on but i wont


archie u make a fair point which i agree with their is a circle in polotics where the far right and far left do meet and both sides of extremism should be defeated
 
Originally posted by an capall@Aug 8 2006, 01:56 PM
Personally I'm rather glad to live in a country that at no stage decided to shoot and hang people just because they were communists
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No, I believe you "off-shored" that nasty little task. (ref; James Connolly 1916 et seq)
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James Connolly wasn't a communist - he was a socialist . Point taken though .
 
Originally posted by an capall@Aug 8 2006, 12:56 PM
Personally I'm rather glad to live in a country that at no stage decided to shoot and hang people just because they were communists
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No, I believe you "off-shored" that nasty little task. (ref; James Connolly 1916 et seq)
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And not strictly confined to Dublin either, though I think in fairness the nature of the beast is fundamentally different given that one dispute was nationalistic and the other industrial. (I should clarify the use of the word fairness relates to the context of the debate, rather than me legitimising it).

I think however, most of us would accept Brian's general point in principal, although we do have a history of mudering dissidents going back to Watt Tyler, its just not a particularly prevalent charateristic of our domestic industrial history. Unlike extremist states which are much more rigid, capitalist states tend not to present a visible target nor provide the naked ammunition to attack it thus. Instead their defence mechanisms are a little bit more assidious and based around suffocation and disguise, through things such as black listing, and spying. Occasionally we permit and tolerate activities, but only to a point where we feel comfortable to control them. History suggests that we make concessions by way of compromise, but only after sustained struggle (the development of Trade Unions, Parliamentary Labour parties, changes to the voting system etc)

Although constantly proud of their illusionary freedoms the USA is in actual fact one of the tightest controlled and closely monitored societies in the world, made more so since the introdcution of the patriot act. It's happy to pedal the illusion, and allow people the platform, until this becomes dangerous (Joe McCarthy would be one name that springs to mind).

What has never really been tested however, is what they would do if people suddenly started to follow the dissenting voices and back up the rhetoric with actions?. Would the state then sit back passively and say it's part of the natural democratic process, and allow the self serving institutions of wealth and priveledge to fall unchallenged?
 
Hold on - let's have some accuracy here! Although troops were sent to Tonypandy in 1910 they wern't deployed against the miners - Churchill used the metropolitan police. No one was killed. Four Tonypandy miners had been shot in 1875 but certainly not for being communists.

No one was killed in George Square, nor was anyone charged with being a communist (not in itself a crime) though after the riot act was read about a dozen were charged with causing a riot. Three, including Manny Shinwell, were jailed.

James Connolly wasn't shot for being a member of the Communist party or the Socialist party. Like others he was executed for rebellion.

I was referring to countries where people were executed just for being a member of the communist party.
 
That was the point about Tonypandy Churchill imposed a de facto martial law . He didn't have anyone shot .
 
Rebellion with the stated attention of begatting a Socialist Republic. And they shot him. Tied on to a chair because of wounds.
 
The point is valid that Britain did not apply its own standards of justice in its colonies including Ireland .

The fact that Connolly was a socialist was not the reason why he was shot . The Easter Rising was a nationalist rebellion not a socialist one . It certainly wasn't the expressed intention of all the Easter Rising leaders. The part referring to political and social rights of the declaration of Provisional Govt was extremely vague.

Connolly was shot for rebellion not socialist rebellion.
 
The incident I think I was referring to (as I said its a dim recollection and I'm not comfortable with putting up as a fact with that in mind) occurred in Yorkshire and involved 2 miners, if anyone can shed any light on it?

I don't think I ever said either that anyone was shot in Glasgow either, but speculated that they would have been. Mind you, there is a conspiracy theory about the Red Clydeside and John McClean that suggests it was something of an invention to allow the British authorities a set piece, but I must confess I haven't read enough on it to form an opinion.
 
As you all know, we Irish don't like to sing songs or dwell on the past and it's injustices. This is why I have only included three of the ballads about James Connolly. A nationalist and a socialist, but thankfully not both.

-----------------

James Connolly
Marchin' down O'Connell Street with the Starry Plough on high
There goes the Citizen Army with their fists raised in the sky
Leading them is a mighty man with a mad rage in his eye
"My name is James Connolly - I didn't come here to die
But to fight for the rights of the working man
And the small farmer too
Protect the proletariat from the bosses and their screws
So hold on to your rifles, boys, and don't give up your dream
Of a Republic for the workin' class, economic liberty"
Then Jem yelled out "Oh Citizens, this system is a curse
An English boss is a monster, an Irish one even worse
They'll never lock us out again and here's the reason why
My name is James Connolly, I didn't come here to die....."
And now we're in the GPO with the bullets whizzin' by
With Pearse and Sean McDermott biddin' each other goodbye
Up steps our citizen leader and roars out to the sky
"My name is James Connolly, I didn't come here to die...
Oh Lily, I don't want to die, we've got so much to live for
And I know we're all goin' out to get slaughtered, but I just can't take any more
Just the sight of one more child screamin' from hunger in a Dublin slum
Or his mother slavin' 14 hours a day for the scum
Who exploit her and take her youth and throw it on a factory floor
Oh Lily, I just can't take any more
They've locked us out, they've banned our unions, they even treat their animals better than us
No! It's far better to die like a man on your feet than to live forever like some slave on your knees, Lilly
But don't let them wrap any green flag around me
And for God's sake, don't let them bury me in some field full of harps and shamrocks
And whatever you do, don't let them make a martyr out of me
No! Rather raise the Starry Plough on high, sing a song of freedom
Here's to you, Lily, the rights of man and international revolution"
We fought them to a standstill while the flames lit up the sky
'Til a bullet pierced our leader and we gave up the fight
They shot him in Kilmainham jail but they'll never stop his cry
My name is James Connolly, I didn't come here to die...."


James Connolly, The Irish Rebel.

A great crowd had gathered outside of Kilmainhem
With their heads all uncovered they knelt on the ground
For inside that grim prison lay a brave Irish soldier
His life for his country about to lay down.

He went to his death like a true son of Ireland,
The firing party he bravely did face.
Then the order rang out: "Present arms, Fire!";
James Connolly fell into a ready made grave.

The black flag they hoisted, the cruel deed was over,
Gone was the man who loved Ireland so well,
There was many a sad heart in Ireland that morning,
When they murdered James Connolly, the Irish rebel.

God`s curse on you, England, you cruel hearted monster,
Your deeds would shame all the devils in Hell,
There were no flowers blooming but the Shamrock is growing
On the grave of James Connolly, the Irish rebel.

Many years have rolled by since the Irish rebellion,
When the guns of Brittania they loudly did speak,
The bold I.R.A. battled shoulder to shoulder,
as the blood of their bodies flowed down Sackville Street.

The Four Courts of Dublin, the English bombarded,
The spirit of freedom, they tried hard to quell
But above all the din rose the cry "No Surrender!"
`Twas the voice of James Connolly, the Irish Rebel.


Where O where is our James Connolly.

Where oh where is our James Connolly ?
Where oh where is that gallant man ?
He is gone to organise the Union
That working men they may yet be free.
Oh who then who will lead the van ?
Oh who then who will lead the van ?
Who but our James Connolly
The hero of the working man.
Where oh where is the Citizen Army ?
Where oh where is that gallant band ?
They've gone to join the great rebellion
That working men they might yet be free.
Who will carry high the burning flag ?
Who will carry high the burning flag ?
Who but our James Connolly
Could carry high the burning flag.
They carried him up to the jail
They carried him up to the jail
And they shot him down on a bright May morning
And quickly laid him in his grave.
Who mourns the death of this great man ?
Who mourns the death of this great man ?
Oh bury me down in yon green garden
With union men on every side.
So they buried him down in yon green garden
With union men on every side
They swore they would form a mighty union
That James Connolly's name might be filled with pride.
Where oh where is our James Connolly ?
Where oh where is that gallant man ?
He is gone to organise the Union
That working men they may yet be free.
 
I'm indebted to the West Yorkshire constabularies web site of all places!!!

The incident occurred in 1893 at Featherstone and became known as 'the disturbance' and did involve troops shooting 2 miners. As yet though, I haven't got Churchills finger prints on it, and suspect that someone's misled me thus ;)

It would appaear that Asquith was the politician responsible. The intention was to use the Police to break a strike, but it turns out that there were no officers available at Pontefract because they'd all gone to watch the St Ledger!!!! Priceless :lol:
 
One more time - many atrocities have been committed in the name of the British people, who most of the time didn't even know what they were endorsing. But no one has ever been executed in Britain for just being a member of the Communist party. Not using its banner as a rallying call for revolution, not rousing fellow members to take action, not attempting to destroy capitalism by peaceful or violent means - just for being a bloody member.

Not all countries can make the same claim and I suspect that a citizen of one of them would like a return to the past..
 
Did the chair fall with Connolly into the 'ready-made grave', AC? If so, it's a terrible waste of what should have become a blessed artefact, likely to cure the pox upon touching it, mend broken bones and guarantee a fine crop o'taters for years to come.
 
Originally posted by an capall@Aug 8 2006, 03:49 PM
What about "Arthur the Commie" who mysteriously disappeared near Falmouth in 1919 then?
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'Tis said that he ran away with a young Irish seller of lucky white heather and changed his name to Durriken
 
I'm leaving my last word to someone else:

If there be righteousness in our hearts,
There will be beauty in our characters.
If there be beauty in our characters,
There will be harmony in our homes.
If there be harmony in our homes,
There will be order in the nations.
If there be order in the nations,
There will be peace in the world. (Confucius)

Not that his ratings system was any good, mind. :brows:
 
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