Fidel Castro

Originally posted by sunybay@Aug 5 2006, 11:57 AM

what is fascinating is the ability to ruin country and to assesinate so many people the comunism has had in the 100 years and so many people in favour of that system.



I'm not sure I'd like to run an historical body count between Communism and Capitalism Suny. In fact I'm not sure you could calculate it, but I wouldn't want you to think that capitalism doesn't kills people too, whether it be through imperialist wars and oppression or the inequal distribution of wealth.

I think its necessary to point out that the Cuban regime isn't in the Stalinist mould, and isn't your typical brutal slayer of its people that popular myth suggests it is. In the struggle for power it killed, and it imprisoned counter reveloutionaries, lets not forget they tried to overthrow it in 1961, what would you do? The Americans did famously campaign about Casto's prisons, which caused great embarrassment to them of course, when Castro offered his prisoners to the Amercians. They took them and turned them free. They proceeded to embark on a mini crime wave, and the Americans had to lock them up. Not surprising, as Castro pointed out, they're criminals, all systems have them, though I have to say I've always found travelling in Communist countries particularly safe. Any way the upshot of this episode was that the Cubans had to take them back.

I should say CF, I'm not sure how you link the iconic status to lacking historical understanding. I just don't see that the two are related anymore than one begats the other, unless you're saying history belongs to the nice people. You might however choose to reflect on the idea that Che in particular has assumed iconic status in the West, and through the rampant use of his image for commercial purposes. I don't think the historical reference is necessarily applicable, its western consumer capitalism that has propogated his image. Although reveered in Cuba you simply see very little of him by way of image or statues, as indeed you don't see much of Castro either.
 
An

Talking seriously

I can give you my opinion and I will do it, but if you are trying to compare Franco with Castro I can reply to that too.


I dont like Francos performance as country ruler for 40 years.

The situation is quite different from the Cuba one,
Franco raised to the power after a civil war, the main reasons for that war was the behaviour of the left wing through the second Republic ,when they ruin the country, attacked the churches and didnt accept the result of the elections of 34, they also had a deal with Stalin to rule the country in the style Ceceascu did in Rumania.


As a goverment, at least didnt ruin the country and did some very good things, but he had an unacceptable antidemocratic behaviour with the political opponents and repressing the press.
I didnt like the way he lead the country with his foreign alliances, I think he should have sided with USA much more.

As labourals politics he was the one to implant the medical services for all the population, also raised the monthly payments for working people and respected the property of all the owners in the country.

His educational politic was much completer than the actual one.


I think he favored some zones of the country much more than others, in fact Cataluña and Pais Vasco were in clear advantage with him in comparations to other places in the country as Murcia,Valencia or Galicia.


Before his dead he was responsible for preparing a pacific transition to Democracy that was working quite well until Zapatero raised to the power after the biggest terrorist attack of the whole history of Europe 2 years ago.
 
Franco certainly didn't favour Gibraltar - he hated the place & did everything possible to annoy the people there!! Including - shutting the border completely for years, re-siting all the criminals & drug addicts in La Linea & building an oil refinery in Algeciras - shame he didn't check which way the wind blows when he sited it though - the fumes blow the opposite way to where he wanted them to go, away from Gib!! :lol:
 
An intersting take on Iberian history there Suny. Funnily enough you could argue that the Spanish Civil War started in Croydon, but I won't try that line ;) . I'm not sure that Franco rose to power after the Civil War either, surely he rose to power because of it, or during it. I think the distinction is important, and unlike yourself I can see some similarities with Cuba, were it not for the fact that Azana's was government indigenous and had been democratically elected, and was still supported by a majority of the people, unlike Battista.

The causes of the Civil War themselves are numerous (as is usually the case) I think for balance you need to accommodate the oppression handed out by Gils Robles government in the mid 1930's that largely forced the formation/ consolidation of the Popular Front. Essentially two very intractable positions were being drawn up that reflected the compisition and structure of Spanish society which was conservative on one side, and radically progressive on the other

The influence of the military is probably the most critical factor I'd have thought. Lets not forget that in 1932 there was the Generals revolt, when right wing commanders tried to over throw the democratcially government. Its hardly surprising that the Popular Front sought to deal with the military thus and reform it in line with the modern Europe. Spain had long lost its empire, and was a very backward and agririan country that was rife with corruption and inefficiency. The recession of the 1930's only sought to exacerbate these tensions in line with the economic collpase that occurred globally and help give rise the Nazism in Germany, Fascism in Italy and Militarism in Japan

The army had a disproportionate and unhealthy influence on democratic Spain too. The civilian government wanted to reform it given that it was chronically top heavy, corrupt and inefficient. Primo de Riveria might have been benign by dictators standards, but he had no elected mandate to Govern in the 1920's, and yet these types of interventions led to the armies perception that they had democratic legitimacy I feel.

The influence of the Catholic Church was also a factor and led to the formation of the CEDA. Although prominent in pre war Spain they were ursurped by the Falange who were much more 'nasty' for want of a crass way of putting it. Indeed, a lot of Falangists were equally adept at fermenting the type of trouble which you seem to be indicating was the exclusive presereve of the anarchist unions such as the CNT and UGT. Falagists were quite adept at assainating political opponents and became just about the worst exponents of it before July '36 and most certainly after it

The Carlists were another group who had a hand in stirring up trouble and Alfonso was largely ineffectual in reigning them in, with his abdication looking more like a grand gesture rather than anything of any substance.

The assasination of Sotelo might have been the straw that broke the camels back, but there had been a series of such acts all throuigh 1935/ 36 from both sides including that of Lieutenent Castillio who was murdered by Fascists at about the same time. Indeed their respective funerals took part within hours of each other, and about a day before Franco's uprising.

Had the Popular Front armed the people straight away, then its entirely possible that Franco would have failed, as a majority of the army stayed loyal to the Republic in the early days, as indeed did the Navy throughout the war (Spain had no airforce and Franco duly borrowed Goerings). A look at a map of Spain in July of 1936 will also show you that most of the country was loyal to the Republic. Indeed the uprising was largely sustained in the South purely because that's where the better troops were, that had been brought in from Morocco, as places like Seville, Cordoba, Huelva and Cadiz had no real appetite for Franco. A similar pattern emerged in Oviedo of all palces which was staunch Republican but unable to shift the garrison, as indeed it did at Granada. Perhaps the most celebrated example would be the Alcazar at Toledo. I must confess to not being quite so familiar with the political dynamics of Galcia Leon, Old Castille and parts of Aragon, but I would have thought Zaragosa's failure to support the Republic was another example of this perversity

What you essentially had was a minority imposing their will on the majority through the force of their weaponary. Even where the Nationalists had a strong foothold, this was largely due to the failures of the people/ government to dislodge them, rather than any endorsement for what they'd done. Franco's foothold was initially tenuous and had the government acted decisively in the first 2 or 3 days then democratic rule in Spain might have been upheld. As such he turned to Hitler and Mussolini, whilst the French and the British largely failed to support the Republic. Indeed it cost Louis Blum his own popular front government in France. Not surprisingly with the democratic powers not really showing any enthusiasm Spain turned to Stalin for aid, which although forthcoming wasn't anything like the same scale that Nazi Germany, and Mussolini furnished Franco with. Indeed they were very happy to rehearse/ practice for what was to happen a few years later, and the apparent inferiority of the Soviet hardware, allied to their weakness in the Winters war against Finland, went along way towards persuading Hitler that a wider European war was winnable I believe.

As regards his regional policy by the way I'm not sure that too many FC Barcelona fans would agree with you, as he came very close to shutting them down for fear of their association as standard bearers of Catalan independence. Franco might have come from Burgos but he was essentially an aristocratic Real Madrid fan. Even to the point where the government bought all the best talent available (invariably South American and giving them Spanish nationality if needed). He then systematically used the club to show case his Fascism (I wonder if good old David Beckham's aware of the historical resonance. Famously Barca were 3 - 1 up in a 1st leg match and took the lead in the return. Under threat of death though, common sense prevailed and they contrived to lose something 13 - 1
 
Well said Warbler . I am surprised at the suggestion that Franco rose after the Civil War his sudden reapperance from North Africa I think showed how he was in at the start. The Republic in fact was not socialist or communist and much of the reason that Franco was able to win was the horrendous and absurd factional infighting in the left illustrated so brilliantly in Homage to Catalonia .

And the fact that Franco was helped no end by the Nazis . Guernica, as well as the arming of the Fascists whilst Chamberlain and the rest of Europe appeased as they were to do with such disastrous effect later .
 
Suny, once and for all:

I am not anti-Semitic (Arabs, whether they're from North Africa, the Levant, or the Arabian Gulf, are also Semitic, something which many people either forget or don't know). I am anti-Zionist expansionism.

I am not anti-'America'. I have had the pleasure of working with Americans for more than 20 years, mainly Texans, but also Coloradans, West Virginians, New Yorkers, etc., and I am VERY happy to have remained friends with them for decades. I am anti-American expansionsim and nouveau colonialism. And yes, I am also against neo-Conservative, near-Fascist, intolerant, self-righteous, simplistic, Christian fundamentalism. It just happens that Dubya is all of those.

I am not pro-Communism/Stalin/Lenin/Trotsky/Marx/Socialism/New Socialism. Those systems have been tried, indeed mostly forced, and they have failed for the simple reason that they repress the individual's personal aspirations - and abilities - and subsume them to a phoney collectivism. We are not troops of baboons. We are humans, with what is generally accepted as a higher IQ than primates and accordingly, more sophisticated psyches. I am NOT anti-capitalism. I WOULD like to see a much better spread of world wealth through micro-capitalist endeavours. I AM anti-Fascist.

I recognize that there is NO perfect political agenda, party, organization or authority in any part of the world. There never has been, but it is possible that one day there will be, if we humans can evolve a little higher in our intelligence. That may take 200, 300, more likely 500 years, but eventually world governance will not be placed in the hands of one leader per country, able to ruin his or her country single-handedly, and to reduce careful growth to rubble and rubbish in two or three years. I'm thinking particularly of the majority of the sub-Saharan African countries and most Indian states, which are rife with corruption, greed at the top, and dreadful, dreadful poverty at the bottom of the societal (or tribal) ladder.

I hope that clears up some of your misconceptions about my views?
 
But good to his mother!

Yes, like that from our learned friend:

"And the basis for your prosecution will be...?"

"He is an evil bastard, Your Honour!"

"Ah, can't have that, then. Forty years. Take him down!"
 
Most government money in Cuba goes in to health and education. Nothing wrong with that. Fidel and his old mucker Che brought 100% books to things that were a bit more important than gambling.
 
Originally posted by cricketfan@Aug 6 2006, 11:02 AM
Does the $13bn of debt (equiv to 38% of GDP), make the book under-round ?

(Figures from Wikipedia)
I think its a tad disingenious to look at GDP without at least acknowledging the effects of the most sustained economic blockade in modern times, which let us not forget has also been instigated by the most powerful country in the planets history. Not only have they denied Cuba direct access to markets, but have wantonly encouarged their numerous accolytes to do similar. In addition to sanctions, they have also systematically been pro-actively aggressors, speculating against the price of sugar for decades, and even went so far as to 'design' a sugarbeat eating insect which they duly tried to infest Cuba with, before the Cubans worked out how to kill it.

Kennedy's "We will build a wall around Cuba" speech was delivered in March 1963 (why wasn't he watching Cheltenham?), which equates to over 40 years of semi isolation now. I'd be very surprised if there was another Carribean Island (other than the tax havens) that would be able to absorb that level and intensity of economic sanctions, (and quite a few more advanced countries on top of that who would seriously struggle under such punitive circumstances). Indeed I think the fact that what was essentially a third world Carribean Island having been subjected to this level of pariah treatment from the all powerful and hypocritical USA is still there today is a tremendous testimony and serves as a beacon to the region as to what could be achieved if any given society defined for themselves a new set of objectives. Why else would the Americans be so determind to maintain a cold war position which is obsolete today? what are their real motives now?

All of this leads me into an observation about how we account for a country's performance and the value we accord various measurements etc It does I think to a large extent reflect what you choose to value as a society, and how you prioritise by way of outputs than defines your sense of accomplishment. There are no shortage of countries enjoying a so called economic miracle whilst their people live in sacks. Also there has to be a sense of context when assessing Cuba in particular, given the unique circumstances they operate under, and that as a society they have structured against a different benchmark in accounting for this.

Therefore I also had to dip into the UN for the figures (not the sort of thing you bring to mind from memory no matter how many times you've heard the arguments for and against). The table combines GDP with a Human Development Index (essentially a handicap rating against spend and income from a regional report for the Carribean rim area). I think ultimately context is all important

0 = average + = positive - = negative. The precise methodolgy is explained in the full report, the only discrepancies concern different countries accounting periods, and those who express their wealth in USD's

Cuba +35
Suriname +29
Belieze +24
Panama +18
Jamaica +18
Dominica +16
Saint Lucia +15
Coasta Rica +14
Venezula +10
Martinque +9
Guadleloupe +9
Tinidad & Tobago +6
Barbados +5 (should imagine M. Stoute accounts for about a quarter of the GDP alone)
Bahamas +4
Nicaragua +4
French Guiana +2
Mexico +1
Haiti -2
St Kitts & Nevis -3
Guyana -4
Antigua -5
St Vincent -8
Barbuda -9
El Salvador -13
Guatamala -19
Domincan Republic -20
Grenada -22
 
Warbler, well thought-out, well-expressed, and well done! It IS a testament to the tiny island's gritty people that they've survived this vicious onslaught for so long. They went up even further in my book when I learned that they refused to accept the large amount of money which the USA wanted to pay them for the use of their Naval Base, which of course Cuba can't fight to win back, and on which the US has parked its illegal concentration camp.

I refuse to bash 'America' for everything that's wrong in the world today, but it has interfered so madly and badly wherever it has been frightened by the mouse of the 'Cold War', now neatly replaced by the 'War on Terrorism'. I assume that the permanent state of alarm in which it wishes to maintain itself is something to do with Defense, its budget, and its sense of self-preservation. You have to keep inventing a New Terror for your populace to react to in horror, and you have to say you will need X billion more in order to fight that terror, for airplanes, surveillance systems, snooping satellites, and the vastly overbloated infrastructure that a military always seems to need to get by.

America is not ruled by a democratic process. America is ruled by the military, as much as any junta rules or has ruled various South American countries, but with a far bigger budget. Naturally, fighter planes do not run on newkiller fuel, fermented onion rings or compressed farts. They still need oil, and the military will protect oil interests because by doing so it protects itself. And so it goes.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 6 2006, 07:16 PM
They went up even further in my book when I learned that they refused to accept the large amount of money which the USA wanted to pay them for the use of their Naval Base, which of course Cuba can't fight to win back, and on which the US has parked its illegal concentration camp.

They've been writing a cheque out for Guatanomo every year, and every year the Cubans refuse to cash it. Indeed Castro's got them displayed in his office, not unlike the labels of Mouton Rothschild.

Quite how they ended up on the axis of evil is slightly beyond me with so many other deserving countries around the world seemingly ignored. Mind you they don't have an important ex pat block vote in a key swing state that your brother just happens to be Governor of :angy:

They've never really shown any appetite for expansion in the classic Soviet sense, and certainly not in recent years. Cubans definately played their part in training the UmkhontoWe Sizwe, but I don't know how any sane person could really call that a crime against humanity. Indeed messrs Thatcher and Reagan should be doing the soul searching there. Che's own forays overseas were often cited as such evidence, but this owed much to a desire on Castro's part to encourage him to leave Cuba. It's no great coincidence he never returned, but ultimately he wasn't a Cuban and once achieved, the revolution lost some of its allure for him I feel. Country building wasn't for Che Guevara etc The idea of sending him to Africa and onto Bolivia was therefore something of a mutual convenience, and ultimately his band could hardly be described as an invading army.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 6 2006, 07:16 PM
America is not ruled by a democratic process. America is ruled by the military, as much as any junta rules or has ruled various South American countries, but with a far bigger budget.
It might amuse you to recall that Castro offered to send election observers to Tallahassee in 2000 - (they never took him up on it :lol: )
 
I was going to watch 'The Motorcycle Diaries' tonight but they'll come round again, I'm sure, when I will. I wonder whether beautiful, charismatic Che - such an icon of and for the times - was less important than we might have thought at the time, in any real revolutionary terms?

I figure that much more crowd-rousing and consciousness-raising was done by Tariq Ali in London, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Buffy St. Marie and similar songwriters, a number of the beat poets reading from their naughtily-worded works, playwrights, anarchic new tv shows and writers, as Che might have achieved. In the late 1950s-1970s forces for social change came as much, or more, from these sources and the revolting students here, in the US, and in not-so-gay Paree, as from anyone dressed in a black beret and carrying a gun. Whaddya think, Warbler?
 
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