Frankel and the International Stakes

Let's be honest, if Frankel were to win doing handstands in the Leger some people would claim he was running scared of the Grand National contenders the following spring. :lol:

I genuinely feel for those who are unable to enjoy this horse for what he is. It's your loss. ;)
 
EC1 said:
Racing Post standard times 10f would dispute that

York = 127.30
Sandown = 127.00
Newmarket = 121.90
Curragh = 125.00
Leopardstown = 123.00
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Which take no account of course configuration or stiffness of finish.

As I've said before, the Dante usually attracts the best horses because it's twice the value of other trials.

He is basically a miler who gets a mile and a quarter on quick ground
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AO'B, re RVW; which is why he went the York 10f route in his 4yo season, rather than the Eclipse.

You guys carry on convincing yourselves it's an equal test, I'm quite happy with my understanding (which proved reliable enough to predict Frankel's programme immediately after the Lockinge, and also tells me Nathaniel won't go near the race.;)). It's also a view shared by any number of trainers and jockeys, but what would that matter?
End of discussion - on my behalf, at least.
 
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It's over a further distance because of the extended mile and a quarter and because of the longer straight horses are in overdrive for longer.

The Juddmonte is Frankel's first try at the trip because it is his owners race. It's got nothing to do with the ease of the course. I would give SNA a good chance in a normal renewal of this race but **** all in the Irish Champion (unless a typical Ballydoyle carve up occurred)
 
reet hard said:
Which take no account of course configuration or stiffness of finish.

As I've said before, the Dante usually attracts the best horses because it's twice the value of other trials.

AO'B, re RVW; which is why he went the York 10f route in his 4yo season, rather than the Eclipse.

You guys carry on convincing yourselves it's an equal test, I'm quite happy with my understanding (which proved reliable enough to predict Frankel's programme immediately after the Lockinge, and also tells me Nathaniel won't go near the race.;)). It's also a view shared by any number of trainers and jockeys, but what would that matter?
End of discussion - on my behalf, at least.
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how can racing for a longer time be an easier test?..you need more energy to race over a trip that takes longer..a simple fact i would have thought

why would someone with a potential Derby winner run in a trial race based on prize money?..the whole idea of a Derby trial is to test potential stamina..it must do that at York as its the most successful Derby trial

if it equates to an 8f test then why have a Derby trial over that test?

can't really find any more evidence to support my view..you think its a milers track ..i think exact opposite based on clear evidence supplied

trainers and jockeys get things wrong many times...each day with jocks when asked what the ground is after the first race..anything from firm to soft is given after they have just raced over the same strip of track
 
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EC1 said:
and as mentioned before its a trial distance for the Derby...very few people question a dante winners stamina for instance
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Not disagreeing or saying you're wrong but plenty were questioning Bonfire's stamina this year.

A lot will depend, as ever, on how the race is run. If Bullet Train (assuming he runs) is allowed to dictate then they can set it up to be a speed test, in which case Frankel isn't losing. If Ballydoyle (or others) fire a few arrows to make it a proper test then it will be tougher, in which case Frankel isn't losing.

It's going to be special. I'm expecting a defining moment in the history of horse racing.
 
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Whatever about what people think here, the main players appear to think that the Juddmonte suits milers stepping up. Henry Cecil has waited for this race to step Frankel up. AOB has run RVW, in his opinion a miler who got 10f on good ground, he also sent Mastercraftsman to take on Sea The Stars. And John Gosden has supplemented Nathaniel for the Irish Champion as an alternative to this race. If it was soft and a greater test of stamina, AOB might run Imperial Monarch, but of course, soft wouldn't suit SNA.
 
The thing about the Juddmonte at York, is it usually goes to the best horse on the day, whether those horses have been running at a mile or a mile and half earlier in the season is an irrelevance imo.

I'd be wary of rewriting history in why Rip Van Winkle missed the Eclipse. He had problems with his feet and took longer to get right, he missed races like the the Lockinge and then flopped in the Queen Anne. It's more for those reasons that he missed the Eclipse (a 2 1/2 week turnaround from Ascot) rather than anything else.

Lets be honest, the reason Rip Van Winkle won the Juddmonte and not the Eclipse was nothing to do with stamina or a lack of it, simply a case of running against Twice Over and Byword at York, but Sea The Stars at Sandown.
 
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Zenyatta said:
Not disagreeing or saying you're wrong but plenty were questioning Bonfire's stamina this year.

A lot will depend, as ever, on how the race is run. If Bullet Train (assuming he runs) is allowed to dictate then they can set it up to be a speed test, in which case Frankel isn't losing. If Ballydoyle (or others) fire a few arrows to make it a proper test then it will be tougher, in which case Frankel isn't losing.

It's going to be special. I'm expecting a defining moment in the history of horse racing.
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bonfire was just a poor winner though ..but yes his stamina was questioned..but on the whole it proves stamina in most years..if the 10 at york was a milers trip its hard to imagine such as Motivator winning it..he was a horse that needed 12f...even though they kept trying for a 10f win after the Derby he did get that 10f win at York..which again points to it being a stamina test
 
davidjohnson said:
The thing about the Juddmonte at York, is it usually goes to the best horse on the day, whether those horses have been running at a mile or a mile and half earlier in the season is an irrelevance imo.

I'd be wary of rewriting history in why Rip Van Winkle missed the Eclipse. He had problems with his feet and took longer to get right, he missed races like the the Lockinge and then flopped in the Queen Anne. It's more for those reasons that he missed the Eclipse (a 2 1/2 week turnaround from Ascot) rather than anything else.

Lets be honest, the reason Rip Van Winkle won the Juddmonte and not the Eclipse was nothing to do with stamina or a lack of it, simply a case of running against Twice Over and Byword at York, but Sea The Stars at Sandown.
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Would that be the same Twice Over that won the Eclipse that RVW swerved, DJ?:)
Sea The Stars or not, RVW ran out of gas in the Eclipse, and I don't believe he was ever seriously considered for another try. Indeed, the only 10f race he contested between that defeat and his York triumph was around a very sharp Santa Anita.
Rather than alluding to any injury, AO'B said, after the International:
We have trained him very gently. He was just ready to step up to a mile and a quarter today. We wanted to keep him for the second half of the season. which suggests the York race was always the intention.
 
In view of this discussion, I thought it might be interesting to have a look at the average winning distance of other Group 1's and 2's won by winners of the main 1m2f Gp1 races. (i.e Sakhee won the Dante, International and Arc- average distance taken as 2200m)

Most of the measurements have been rounded (2100m for York, 2000 for the Eclipse etc). No doubt Gareth will be along with accurate figures later. :lol:

Eclipse 1929m
Champion 1953m
Juddmonte 2018m
Irish Champion 2026m
Prince Of Wales 2052m
 
Ay? I always thought the Juddmonte and Dante were at the same distance?

All the argument in my opinion is irrelevant - Frankel is going to tear them all a new @rsehole. At 1m4f I might be concerned about his stamina but there is just no way, given the way he finishes his races, that he won't get 10f and get it well. He could have gone round goodwood again after the Sussex.
 
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