Hi Jinny, Len etc thank you for the kind messages. When I left stables in 1973, after Brigadier Gerard retired, I was told by a few of the senior lads that he had been robbed by Timeform, possibly because he was owned by a single mare owner/breeder. I never gave their comments a second thought until 2012 when Frankel was awarded 147 for winning the Queen Anne Stakes and I was able to calculate the ratings. Both horses had won their best races over one mile, at Ascot. I wrote to Timeform to ask them to explain the comparison with Brigadier Gerard's performance in the QEII 1972 and that, I believe, prompted them to review BG's rating in their Racehorses of 2012. I had hoped the racing channels or media would have addressed this for me in the subsequent years but they clearly have no intention of doing so, as yet. Brigadier Gerard's name has never even been mentioned in conjunction with Frankel because, I guess, they came up with the same results I did and there is no getting away from them.
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Frankel v Brigadier Gerard. The greatest showdown.
- Thread starter brigust
- Start date
Len Madeiros
Journeyman
How do you view BG’s defeat to Roberto, Brigust? Some argue that it was the greatest single performance seen on a UK racecourse. There was nothing to suggest that the Brigadier had run anything other than to form, and he won his immediate races before and after, without any problems.
I’d appreciate your thoughts.
I’d appreciate your thoughts.
Generous1991
Amateur Rider
Brigust, I take it you are the narrator in the video? In which case, you were Brigadier Gerard's lad? What a gift.
I get why this is a passion project for you. You must have some grand memories of the Brigadier.
I get why this is a passion project for you. You must have some grand memories of the Brigadier.
Len Madeiros
Journeyman
I also came across this, Brigust - I hope you don’t mind me sharing:
brigadiergerardandme.co.uk
It gives readers on this forum a much clearer picture of what you are all about. I really like it!
It’s actually a great honour that Brigadier Gerard’s stable lad/ groom is sharing his thoughts and videos on YouTube, and then sharing that information on this forum. And has a book to back it all up.
I will watch the YouTube tonight, and I have a feeling that you’re going to convince me of something I was never quite sure about…
Brigustbooks – Brigustbooks
brigadiergerardandme.co.uk
It gives readers on this forum a much clearer picture of what you are all about. I really like it!
It’s actually a great honour that Brigadier Gerard’s stable lad/ groom is sharing his thoughts and videos on YouTube, and then sharing that information on this forum. And has a book to back it all up.
I will watch the YouTube tonight, and I have a feeling that you’re going to convince me of something I was never quite sure about…
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Thank you so much everyone for the kind words. It never crossed my mind that I would be here writing books and making videos about the Brigadier as I approach my 8th decade, next year. I am so thankful I never missed it but I am equally sad for the lads I worked with in the 1960s and 70s who have missed it. No-one knows who the best racehorses are because they never meet but I have always believed he was right up there with the best of them.
Hi Len. I have no idea what happened at York, for certain. Roberto ran like a great horse on that one occasion. Even his trainer had no explanation. According to Jim McGrath of Timeform the third horse Gold Rod was beaten 17 lengths back in third place. Timeform refused to rate the race because the figures would have been virtually untouchable.
When I wrote the book I had to get off the fence and not hedge my bets. As you probably know Brigadier Gerard is a Conan Doyle character in his books, a French Hussar. So I decided to write my thoughts as if I was another of his characters, Sherlock Holmes. I studied all of the write-ups, newspaper cuttings and all of the books written about Roberto, mainly by his trainer Vincent O'Brien, and the strongest explanation I could deduce was the use of a 'buzzer'. There were rumours going around at the time anyway and with buzzers widely used in the US in training racehorses, especially lazy and lethargic racehorses like Roberto. As his trainer claimed.
Obviously the explanation is much more detailed but I still believe there is a strong possibility a buzzer was used during training. I don't believe the jockey had anything to do with it other than to steer him.
I have attached a file that may explain more. These electrical devices are still widely used in the US and Australia today and they were banned in 1974 in the US because they were so widely used then.
There you have it. I haven't ducked the issue but to me it is the strongest of the likelihoods. I have attached some of the large amount of info that I have.
Attachments
Len. On its own it may not mean a lot but when you add it to the comments VOB made to the press directly after the race plus the owner lived and trained in the US it adds a little more perspective.
These are a few of his quotes to the press.
Roberto shot out of the stalls like a bullet.
It was an electric performance.
He ran as if galvanised.
Led at a scorching pace.
An entirely different horse.
Roberto ran like a scalded cat.
He went so fast. Jet propelled.
Galloping as if he was haunted.
At breakneck speed.
And don't forget this was a lazy, lethargic horse who, 10 days beforehand Lester had turned down the ride because he wasn't working well.
These are a few of his quotes to the press.
Roberto shot out of the stalls like a bullet.
It was an electric performance.
He ran as if galvanised.
Led at a scorching pace.
An entirely different horse.
Roberto ran like a scalded cat.
He went so fast. Jet propelled.
Galloping as if he was haunted.
At breakneck speed.
And don't forget this was a lazy, lethargic horse who, 10 days beforehand Lester had turned down the ride because he wasn't working well.
Len Madeiros
Journeyman
Fascinating stuff, Brigust. So, Brigadier Gerard wasn’t got at, but Roberto could have been nobbled in a different way? As a standalone performance, it does seem incredible - even now! No wonder Timeform were scared to “rate” it.
I know these horses would never have met, but that’s hardly the point. You rarely get what you want regarding match-ups in flat racing, as too many “great” horses are retired at 3. Imagine a King George/ Eclipse in 1971/72, involving Nijinsky!
We absolutely should imagine scenarios - we are too often deprived of what we yearn for, through no fault of our own.
Len Madeiros
Journeyman
Fantastic research! I love this stuff. You’ve put the hours in, because you’re obsessed, man! Fifty-three years ago? So what? You were THERE!
Thank you so much, Brigust.
Len Madeiros
Journeyman
And you must have been devastated when your boy lost his unbeaten record! To a horse, now you suspect, was artificially encouraged to run faster.
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I don't know what happened for certain Len but this is my nearest calculated guess. I couldn't keep saying I had no idea. I either take everything with me to the grave or put the information out there for others to assess.
Lads and Ladies
Horse racing brings out opinions in us all be they right or wrong. We will all put our heads down on a pillow that night thinking I was right and fall asleep but remember your relies will be up here forever so lets all relax and enjoy the sun.
WELCOME ABOARD BRIGUST.
Myles
Horse racing brings out opinions in us all be they right or wrong. We will all put our heads down on a pillow that night thinking I was right and fall asleep but remember your relies will be up here forever so lets all relax and enjoy the sun.
WELCOME ABOARD BRIGUST.
Myles
edgt
Senior Jockey
Just wondering if Lord Oaksey had joined the ITV racing team by that stage anyone ?
In his autobiography "Mince Pies For Starters " he wrote of a jockey using battery operated electric spurs on a jady chaser at Bob Turnell's. Apparently the insulation on the wires had worn so while the jockey schooled this horse during a thunder storm he geed himself up as much as the horse !
In any event the horse in question won plenty of races after and showed no after effects.
Roberto and Boucher , both ridden by American jockeys led the 1972 Arc at speeds close to Prix de l'Abbaye and Prix du Moulin ( run the same day) pace ; both horses owned by J W Galbraith.
Owen Weldon was Roberto's work rider in Ballydoyle and is still hale and hearty at 86 or so years of age.
He may have evidence to support or deny your theory.
( Owen led up Charlie Smirke's last winner and Padraig Beggy was apprenticed to him so he links Derby winners Windsor Lad 1934 with Wings Of Eagles 2019)
Joe Mercer maintained that mucus exited the Brigadier's nostrils once he was out of public view, that you had been instructed to keep the horse's head up while he was unsaddled.
Any truth in that Brigust ?
Welcome, by the way , I must get my hands on your book.
In his autobiography "Mince Pies For Starters " he wrote of a jockey using battery operated electric spurs on a jady chaser at Bob Turnell's. Apparently the insulation on the wires had worn so while the jockey schooled this horse during a thunder storm he geed himself up as much as the horse !
In any event the horse in question won plenty of races after and showed no after effects.
Roberto and Boucher , both ridden by American jockeys led the 1972 Arc at speeds close to Prix de l'Abbaye and Prix du Moulin ( run the same day) pace ; both horses owned by J W Galbraith.
Owen Weldon was Roberto's work rider in Ballydoyle and is still hale and hearty at 86 or so years of age.
He may have evidence to support or deny your theory.
( Owen led up Charlie Smirke's last winner and Padraig Beggy was apprenticed to him so he links Derby winners Windsor Lad 1934 with Wings Of Eagles 2019)
Joe Mercer maintained that mucus exited the Brigadier's nostrils once he was out of public view, that you had been instructed to keep the horse's head up while he was unsaddled.
Any truth in that Brigust ?
Welcome, by the way , I must get my hands on your book.
Hi edgt
I have directly behind me Mince Pies for starters. Yes Roberto and Boucher run the first 5 furlongs in the 1972 Arc faster than the Prix de l'Abbeye.
No there was no large clot of mucus. I was holding him all of the time. He did have a mild virus and bled from the nose the week before the race but I don't think anyone realised it was a mild virus. I only knew when Paul Nichols withdrew a couple of his Cheltenham runners for the same reason.
It would be interesting to talk to Owen Weldon, sadly he gets no mention in any of the VOB books. I did meet their travelling lad Gerry Gallagher who sadly died a couple of years ago. Gave nothing away.
Thank you for the welcome.
Len Madeiros
Journeyman
Just watched the clip, Brigust - thank you.
Absolutely fascinating watch. If you ever wanted a horse’s biggest fan to tell the story of why their horse was the greatest of all time, I’d have you in my corner every day of the week!
Yes, you’ve convinced me: Brigadier Gerard has been badly done by. He was a better horse than Frankel.
It’s all in the “what did he beat?” And BG beat far better horses than Frankel did. Mill Reef was rated 141; Sparkler was rated 129 - and received a 7lb pull in weights and a 6-length beating at Ascot. There were far more horses rated at 135 and over during this era, too.
There’s plenty more, but I’m tired. I will watch it again. But a great story and assessment - many thanks.
Absolutely fascinating watch. If you ever wanted a horse’s biggest fan to tell the story of why their horse was the greatest of all time, I’d have you in my corner every day of the week!
Yes, you’ve convinced me: Brigadier Gerard has been badly done by. He was a better horse than Frankel.
It’s all in the “what did he beat?” And BG beat far better horses than Frankel did. Mill Reef was rated 141; Sparkler was rated 129 - and received a 7lb pull in weights and a 6-length beating at Ascot. There were far more horses rated at 135 and over during this era, too.
There’s plenty more, but I’m tired. I will watch it again. But a great story and assessment - many thanks.
Thank you, Len.
Edgt. I cannot find any record of the lad you mentioned but if you could ask him a question I would be interested in the answer. The question is "Did Roberto do a stalls test the weekend before he went to York?"
The reason I ask this is because Roberto was slowly away in his previous race and he had been before, and he was noted for being lazy and lethargic so, in some instances, horses in the US are apparently encouraged to leave the stalls quickly by being prodded by this electrical device known as a buzzer. This could be done very secretly away from other horses and even the person on board may not be fully aware exactly what is going on.
Edgt. I cannot find any record of the lad you mentioned but if you could ask him a question I would be interested in the answer. The question is "Did Roberto do a stalls test the weekend before he went to York?"
The reason I ask this is because Roberto was slowly away in his previous race and he had been before, and he was noted for being lazy and lethargic so, in some instances, horses in the US are apparently encouraged to leave the stalls quickly by being prodded by this electrical device known as a buzzer. This could be done very secretly away from other horses and even the person on board may not be fully aware exactly what is going on.
I’ve missed this thread because the forum seemed to be full of similar ones and it was a bit overwhelming. Looking forward to listening to the link when I’ve got time. Ever since I got back into racing the thing that I’ve loved is how accessible people involved in the sport are and have always felt stable staff are under rated after reading ‘ From Dawn Till Dusk’. On the subject of American racing can I mention a book Mike bought for me called ‘ Kick the Latch’ by Kathryn Scanlon
Jayhawk
Amateur Rider
I discovered the blog horseracingmatters.com this afternoon and have already read through many of this month's postings which often overlap with the Talking Points on Racing TV's Luck on Sunday programme, but are dealt with in more detail here. I thought I would do a search on horseracingmatters and Brigadier Gerard, and a review of the book mentioned above appeared.
I used to have an old paperback edition of John Hislop's book The Brigadier. I can't remember whether he mentioned the possibility of some kind of electrical device being used on Roberto at York, but there is a quote by Vincent O'Brien in his official biography that it was " complete nonsense ".
edgt
Senior Jockey
One of the possible reasons that Owen did not get a mention by MVOB was that he , as Apalachee's work rider raised doubts about the horse's cleanness of wind in spring of 1974.
Such honesty may not have been fully appreciated by connections at a time when their horse was odds on favourite for the 2000 Gns.
Needless to say the horse was beaten and sent to USA.
Such honesty may not have been fully appreciated by connections at a time when their horse was odds on favourite for the 2000 Gns.
Needless to say the horse was beaten and sent to USA.
