Good people of the North

Warbler

At the Start
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
8,493
Flee

Your cities are shite and falling apart. You are beyond salvation and hope and must leave forthwith. Liverpool, Sunderland and Bradford have no more legitimacy than a weasel. London, Oxford and Cambridge are the garden of Eden by comparison. Uproot your family and come straggling down the motorways to a new world of opportunity and stake your claim. There's gold in them there fens. Abandon your cholera and typhoid, your famine and slums, move down to the South East and share in a brave new future

Says who????

The Policy Exchange
 
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Arent there some northern cities where over 50% workforce is employed directly by the state?

They put their case brutally and given Cameron's rising profile, it was politically inept, but should we keep throwing regional grants at cities that are on an irreversible and natural decline?

Like it or not, the SE has the infrastructure, both physical and intellectual, to always be far more competitive in what is now an information and service economy. But on the other hand they seemingly didnt highlight cities like Leeds which are thriving.
 
But on the other hand they seemingly didnt highlight cities like Leeds which are thriving.

Exactly. They are correct in that an awful lot of towns/cities up here are pure fucking toilets. But, in general the women are more attractive, the football is a lot better and there are a lot of fine up and coming cities.
 
Classic comment on the radio yesterday made by a chap up north who said "I think the wealth should be distributed the same all over - we all pay our taxes". Yes, since it's just that simple, isn't it?!?!
 
One of the problems is proportionately the poorer north pay more taxes as a percentage of gross income. A tax band of 60% should be introduced for any income over 100K per annum. I would also introduce an 80% tax band on any annual earnings over 200K.
 
One of the problems is proportionately the poorer north pay more taxes as a percentage of gross income

Since when?!

I would guess that a far greater proportion of taxpayers in the south are in the higher band. Not only that, a buyer of a modest home in the south (£250k upwards) is going to be hit by Browns 3% spite stamp duty tax, triple the rate for a buyer of a similar property in the north.
 
Point taken on the property front. But what is the higher band now, 40% at anything over 30K a year? Not enough imo.
 
What isnt enough?!

The 30k or the 40%?

Its £34.8k for higher rate. I think that is ludicrously low myself. Are they really saying that £35k is high paid"?
 
It`s way above average and is a comfortable wage really -but of course lots of geeks on that sort of wage will automatically be purchasing the 4x4 penis substitute etc etc.
 
It`s way above average and is a comfortable wage really

Not in London it isnt!

Pies might be cheap, do you know how much Sushi costs these days? :)

More seriously, do you really think that someone with a 200k mortgage (thats a one bed flat in most of the SE) and on 35k a year is really going to be buying a new 4x4 as well?

I think that they would be lucky to even have the mortgage...

35k is not "comfortable"
 
As this is allegedly warblers professional area of expertise (well it least for a few more months anyway) I thought I'd chip in.

The 'core cities' of the UK have done pretty well in truth in the last few years and have been the beneficiaries of regen money. Places like Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham, Manchester and yes despite what the policy exchange say, even Liverpool have comparatively prospered. The places that were traditionally left behind in this first generation were what I'll crudely call the 'second division' regional centres, Leicester, Coventry, Sunderland, Bradford, and Hull. Recent evidence however suggests that even these places are not without progress, although the gap between them and their more dominant regional K2 city has widened. The places that continue to suffer are those which I'll call 'third division' and these are largely 'towns' or captured towns of metropolitan areas such as Dewsbury, Rotherham, Preston, Huddesfield, Sandwell, Grimsby, Middlesborough, Oldham, Salford or Blackburn.

There is another important distinction to make which has guided what this self-styled "I'm an academic" wally, responsible for the report, has totally failed to pick up on.

In the 1980's the alleged regeneration of the UK urban areas was centred on what we call 'top down, physical regen'. Essentially this involved under-writing development with property led interventions. Inevitably it meant that certain parts of the country benefited to the detriment of others. Such policy initiatives involved things like the 'Garden Cities' (remember them?) - Liverpool, Stoke, Glasgow, Gateshead and Ebbw Vale for those of you interested. By and large they failed, but were flawed in concept anyway. They did have the effect of raising awareness though, but it was an expensive way of doing it.

Other 'physical regen' programmes involved things like 'City Challenge' which set cities against each in a bidding war, often dubbed "The Regeneration Game". These were essentially property led interventions again, designed to facilitate a physical upgrade of an area. For the most part they worked, although they fell short of the brave new world they were supposed to herald in, as they were under-written by a speculative bubble around the price of property investment. For such time as the market was confident spec builders would engage. However, as the bubble burst in the early 90's (Tory led recession) alot of developers scaled back their ambitions and sought sanctuary in less risky 'mixed developments' with 'pre-let anchors' before they'd do anything.

The next round of UK government led regen came from the SRB (Single Regeneration Budget). The first round was again property led and had similar aspects to it to City Challenge, but usually involved targeting a discreet pocket of decay. Unfortunately, just at the time that the decision was due to be made as to who had won, Michael Heseltine panicked a bit under severe pressure and criticsm at having closed down the Nottinghamshire coalfields. He duly got up in parliament and announced that new money would be made available for regen purposes, (which had people scratching their heads) suffice to say the civil servants were somewhat 'bushwhacked' into turning SRB1 into a coalfield retrieval fund.

SRB2 was a much more conventional top down property led programme, and SRB3 was focused on housing, as the idea of "thematic regen" started to be born. A legacy of this is that most LA's have a 'community safety' team today, as this was another themed response.

In terms of industrial regen the Tories introduced things like Enterprise Zones which were heavily subsidised and benefited from a 10 year rate holiday. I never had much problem with it, even though I could see the complete hypocrisy of it. They also introduced a whole raft of UDC's which were undemocratic qangos who assumed repsonsibility off local authorities for development, and I can certainly think of at least one CEO who got caught with his fingers in the till.

The level of spend should also make some concession to European Objective's 1 and 2 as well as match funded ESF Objectives 3 and 4. Merseyside, The Highlands and Islands and Northern Ireland were all Objective 1 areas at some point allowing them to access huge pots of ERDF funding from Brussels (I seem to think Cornwall might have been briefly too). Most industrial areas of the north and major cities could also access ERDF objective 2. Depending on the funds specifics a degree of match funding was needed to access European Structure Funds, as I seem to recall they were for some European Regional Development Funds too. European funding was a science in its own right, but I suspect that the success that some local authorities had in levering in non-governmental money has been lost to the authors, (although strictly speaking you might say it's still government money given that it comes from Brussels).

This traditional 'physical' regen of visible sites is the limit as to what i think the Policy exchange understand by Regeneration.

In 1997 the game changed. UDC's were replaced by RDA's which were slightly more accountable. In truth UDC's have made a kind of come back under new Labour despite what Prescott says, although the word Company has replaced Corporation, and they have nothing like the amount of funding available to them now, nor do they have responsibility for whole swathes of an area. They are seen much more as a 'facilitator' than a 'lead drive'.

The biggest change though concerned the shift to what we now call 'bottom up, social regen', which the Policy exchange seems to have missed completely, as they're still marrooned in the old idea of property led physical regen. Social regen involves addressing issues such as housing, poor educational attainment, training, job creation, poor health, child poverty, income levels etc. It prompted the government to set up the 'Social Exclusion Unit' who produced a whole series of reports ranging from access to shops right up to employment. In many respects it was a statement of the blindingly obvious, but had the effect of re-focusing activity directly at the point of delivery (usually deprived council estates, or inner city area sof transitory populations).

The bottom up angle also meant that we had to engage in protracted consulatation exercises that frequently yielded nothing that we didn't know already. Similarly, we were required to engage communities and invite them to become part of their own solutions in partnership together. The problem being, is there was very little capacity or appetite within the communities to engage, and yet without their active involvement we couldn't access funding, as we wouldn't be able to demonstrate their participation. It also led to the creation of unwieldy multi-disciplined so called 'strategic partnerships' to direct regenertaion work. In a lot of cases though, such partnerships provide a convenient collective camoflauge to abrogate responsibility for non-delivery and share it out equally, thus making it very difficult to isolate a specific fault line. In practical terms a lot of them corrupt themselves and become nothing more productive than a 'talk shop' and far from becoming part of the solution, they actually become part of the problem. This is further compounded when the partnership begins to believe it's actually working. In a lot cases they increasingly exist largely for the benefit of the people who attend them, and given that they're naturally given towards brokering compromises, they spawn very little by way of creative thinking, and will normally shy away from brave decisions for fear of being held accountable for them.

Anyway, the SRB programme continued for four more year under new labour but was focused on social regen (which I promise you is a damned sight harder to deliver). Many of the problems that regen strategies now address are deeply engrained and almost intractable, and perhaps this needs to be acknowledged. The policy exchange of totally missed this though, and haven't made the link that regen can be equally about people, as it can place.

Other policy initiatives launched by Labour in the name of regen would include something like the New Deal for the Communities, (NDC). these have by and large failed and degenerated into serious acrimony in a lot cases as the community either wasn't interested, or started to fight within itself. It led me to observe that if you want to unite a community, give them nothing. If you want to divide them, tell them they can have £50M. The other aspect of social regen that the report misses concerns people tracking. Anyone who lives in area that has been the subject of a social regen programme will know that there is a reason it attracted such support in the first place!!! The first thing that any one who benefits from the programme aspires to do, (as soon as they can afford it) is leave, and go and live elsewhere. For this reason the baseline figures (sorry indicies of multiple deprivation) that define an area, tend to look no different 10 years after an area first received assistance. Essentially, what we get is 'churn' as those people who benefit from social intervention move on, and are replaced by the next generation of.......?

There is another aspect that's worth considering and that concerns what i'll call 'back door' regen. One city that has benefited from this would be Manchester, who has a lot of the BBC relocating there to help under-write their media employment cluster as an apex commissioner. They also got the Commonwealth Games of course (credit to them) they even got awarded the Super Casino in defiance of all logic. In fact, that particularly flawed decision kind of underlines perfectly what i said earlier about the major K2 cities prospering to the detriment of more deserving (in this case) K4's like Blackpool. On top of that Manchester has farmed the European pot, been awarded NDC money, a host of successive SRB monies, as well as levering a tram system (like Sheffield and Nottingham) during the last 15 years. There's other areas where it's succeeded too, but they're too numerous to go into.

Leeds is often held up as an example of good regen especially given the predicament it faced in the early 80's. What they did was specifically target financial services building on a base of 'mutal and friendly societies'. They are an example of what can be achieved with dynamic local leadership, and when the right people are brought together with a genuine appetite.

Just as a sign off...which I'm sure the policy exchange missed the educational attainment scores (5 grades at A* to C including English and Maths) is higher in Liverpool, and Hull for that matter, than it is in Oxford
 
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If the north is so bad, then a couple of years ago why were a lot of southerners buying up cheap houses here to rent them out! If you get a chance to watch Carole Malia's interview on BBC Look North last night with the guy who decided this rubbish it was so funny, everytime he started giving a reason why the north was so obsolete she hit him back with response after response.... poor geek didn't get a chance.
 
If the north is so bad, then a couple of years ago why were a lot of southerners buying up cheap houses here to rent them out!

I think you have answered your own question there



Warbler...that is one long post.

One thought...

Was the relative success of Leeds due to "regional grants" or the clever promotion and management by the local authority and businesses?

As ever, simply throwing money is not the solution...

And ultimately certain communities/cities/towns cannot buck the economic trend. Is tehre any real point in pretending otherwise? Is the realistic future the american model whereby rust belt towns such as Gary die and cities such as Phoenix.....rise? The american workforce has always been more mobile and whilst its easy for me to say sitting here in one of the most prosperous boruoghs in the country, shouldnt the UK workforce accept a greater degree of flexibility

Northerners (including my family) that i know, who have made the move south are often very scathing of the lack of ambition and general victimhood of many of those they have left behind

The one downside of this is the lack of property in the south. Arizona has far more space to play with.

But with over 50% of the workforce in some northern cities employed by the state....
 
It didn't seem like a long post Clive. Believe me, it just came pouring out!!!

The point about Leeds first;

It's often held up as 'best practice' (another myth) but it was a combination of capable and driven individuals with an appetitie making best use out of regional selective assistance and urban programme money as it was back then. Which returns me to this nonesense that is called best practice. It doesn't exist. Best practice in most forms of life (even though the public sector get blasted by it more than most) is normally a reflection on the capabilities of key individuals, and nothing to do with the adopting and implementation of any model and system. That is to say, a high calibre individual will do a better job with an inadequate model of working practice, than a numpty will do if supplied with a supposidly excellent one. The issue here therefore revolves not so much as giving money out for regeenration purposes, but making sure it falls into the hands of a capable body. Leeds is one of the very rare examples of a dynamic and visionary council that was prepared to work in proper partnership with an action focused agenda, and not just 'tick the boxes' for appearances sake, and then pat themselves on the back. The worst partnership models that I've (some of whom have actively set out to stifle growth) have been in the South.

Throwing money at things can work if your prepared to accept that sustaining a position during transition is an outcome. Subsidising employment is often no where near as expensive than allowing markets to cause widespread unemployment in terms of benefits paid out, tax revenues lost, consumer multiplier etc

You have of course gone some way towards answering the question about why the USA can't be considered a workable model to replicate. Not only is our population density much greater, but it's at its most acute in the area that the policy exchange are advocating we continue to over-load. The transport infrastructure is already creeking, as are the demands on the health and education services, throw in the property crisis and hideous cost of living and it's a no brainer in terms of existing provision. In short Texas alone is 5 times the size of England.
 
That is to say, a high calibre individual will do a better job with an inadequate model of working practice, than a numpty will do if supplied with a supposidly excellent one

Very very true...


Not only is our population density much greater, but it's at its most acute in the area that the policy exchange are advocating we continue to over-load.

True but at the same time there are many thousands of immigrants from eastern europe and elsewhere who have managed to settle in the London area. And no complaints about that from me...

Its to london's benefit that it has attracted enterprising people from the world over rather than my workshy Northern cousins...(and im not joking ...you should meet them....)

But at the same time, they should have been there first...
Subsidising employment is often no where near as expensive than allowing markets to cause widespread unemployment in terms of benefits paid out


And does the lack of mobility indicate that the benefits are just a little too cosy?
 
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Northerners (including my family) that i know, who have made the move south are often very scathing of the lack of ambition and general victimhood of many of those they have left behind

Ambitious people in most work enviroments are generally amongst the biggest cunts one is ever gonna meet.
 
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There has been a policy for some time now of moving public sector jobs out of London, which makes sense because of the high cost of living there for people on comparatively low incomes.
 
Not sure how enterprising some of them are, so far as I can see many of them end up doing pretty awful jobs and at a fraction of the wage. It's difficult to build a successful and harmonious society based around low skills and low pay. You can build a society that has a successful economy with an elite apex of wealth if you go down this route, but I don't believe we should aspire to that. It's a classic case of capital surpressing labour, as very often some of the worst abusers of immigrant labour are business people from the ethnic background as the people they choose to exploit. I'm less convinced that this really benefits the economy, and even less so that it benefits society and the people who make it up. It might benefit Mr Unscrupulous restruant owner, textile factory owner personally etc but that's about it.

I realise you might not complain about eastern Europeans, but you'd have to have been walking around blindfolded with lumps of cheese in your ears for the last 5 years to realise that many are doing, (the reasons however, might lie in a completely different area as to why). Our public services are creeking under the weight of the influx, even if they do pay tax and for the most part, this particular group do contribute more productively than other new arrivals appear to. The problem is that the government won't acknowledge their existance as it would be tantamount to admitting they completely miscalculated (30,000 they forecast). As a result council tax is having to rise, (which is politically unacceptable to councillors as voters won't vote for them) so folks like my good self are having to pay with our jobs instead, in an attempt to make cut backs that can redirect shore up the dam.

The issue of mobility however opens up a totally different arena and some potentially awkward contradictions. As you're fond of reminding us, we live in a democracy. The people therefore give the government a mandate and understand that the government will work in their interests. Essentially, the people own the government and are periodically allowed to change it. If the people decide they want to live in a place of their choosing, and task the government to provide for them thus, who are the government to turn around and so 'no, we refuse to do that'? This is why Thatcher's market led approach to regen was essentially undemocratic. She just abandoned her responsibility to the people and said the market is king. The market in turn just cherry picked the lowest hanging fruit. What she was practicing was a policy that was systematically discriminating in favour of some regions to the detriment of others, but washing her hands in doing so by telling us it was for the market to decide. It was tantamount to a market led apartheid, but then she always supported that particular form of government and never made any attempt to apologise or criticise it, which all Tories should hang their heads in shame over, as it strikes at what should be a fundamental human right to any civilised society. In fairness Cameron has since apologised (although it prompted the comment from Bernard Ingham "I sometimes wonder if he's a conservative at all")

Returning to this issue of how you'd accomodate an influx of population. You yourself described the proposition of the eco town programme in a recent post in very derogatory terms, (can't remember what you said precisely). I'm personally in favour of them, although I think an expanded new town not disimilar to the second generation (1960's), rather than the first generation greenfield (1950's) tend to work better. Indeed, some of us have been advocating a new generation of expanded towns embracing environmental (not ecological) principles for nearly 20 years now (the problem of being a visionary that is too far in advance of events is no one listens to you, and think's you're barking mad instead, but then no generation has ever liked it's prophets and I suppose I ought to thankful that no one's killed me yet, which was a traditional route :o).

Now I doubt very much that Tony Henman reads talking horses, but one of the big problems we have in the UK is the good old British Nimby, and a town planning system that allows them to bog things down when decisive action is needed.

It should be a concern to all of us that we have not only witnessed the emergence of a 'property rich' and 'property poor' class, but that this has discriminated in terms of age cohorts. Action is needed, and there are parts of the country with the absorpative capacity to take on extra capacity provided the infrastructure is put in place simultaneously. East Anglia and Lincolnshire come to mind and would only require a few motorways sticking through them with a few enviro suburbs grafted onto existing towns, or even purposes building new ones. However, the Nimbys and alarmists like the CPRE will kick up such a stink that it would 20 years before the first keys were handed over. Now obviously in my Stalinsit state we'd get round this more directly, but then I've never been a fully paid up member of the idea that western democracy is the greatest system ever invented.

Essentially, a supply side solution is needed here and whilst the governments be wasting time on banning fox hunting they've missed an opportunity. No Tory government would ever dream of anything so ambitious, and in many respects Tory County Council's are amongst the biggest, if the biggest, problem in the whole equation.

Just download googleearth sometime and set yourself at about 4 miles high. There's plenty of land in this country despite our densities of population. What we need in infrastructural investment, affordable homes, a reform of the T&CPA and a reform and more aggresive use of CPO powers. Oh and me in charge of it ;).

If anyone knows anyone who works in an employing capacity in regeneration and economic development, please don't pass these tyraids on to them :D
 
There has been a policy for some time now of moving public sector jobs out of London, which makes sense because of the high cost of living there for people on comparatively low incomes.

That needs qualifying Grey. That is the Lyons review which is specifically about Civil Service relocation. For the most part they're a slow moving monolith, but when their own status is threatend by government policy they can suddenly become a formidable blocker and serial obstructor. Hence why so little of Lyons has been delivered, although plenty of Local authorities have put money into to trying to attract activity out of London.
 
I have lived in both north and South, I know where I prefer and I have no intention of ever moving South again.

Of course there are many people in the north who are the typical sterotype, but that is the same whereever you go. Newbury for example has some very upper class people and houses and then you see the dregs of society on the nightingales or the Turnpike.

Just because you have a few relatives who know a few people who are "workshy" is no reason to write off half of the country as obsolete.

I wonder how much the thinktank were paid to come up with such rubbish
 
Given the three locations they headlined as ideal, I'm tempted to wonder what experience they have of the UK? London (where they're based) Oxford and Cambridge (why those two I wonder?). If they had actually taken the time to research the practicalities, they'd realise that at least one of them is chocker block and has been lobbying for an expansion of city's boundary for 15 years now, without success. The Conservative County Council however, keeps opposing it, and keeps turning down development plans on its side of the boundary which only makes the over-crowding in the urban area more intesnive and further stokes up property prices, as supply isn't being allowed to meet demand. The result is that people are excluded or have little disposable income as it's all eaten up in rent, which trust me, doesn''t lead to best quality of life. The other alternative, which is what I've been forced into, is environmentally damaging long distance commutes into a city whose transport can't cope, which is no small part is due to the fact the wohole city centre is a conservation area, and you just aren't allowed to build new roads. Even arterial routes are difficult to upgrade as there are vey few lines availble that wouldn't infringe planning restrictions, or aren't owned by the ultra conservative university.

The other university town mentioned has a similar problem. Both Conservative county councils are actively opposing proposed 'eco towns' in their area. Perhaps this right wing think tank might like to indulge in a bit of self-examination, and realise that the conservative party local government network is the biggest barrier to the solutions they're advocating.
 
What she was practicing was a policy that was systematically discriminating in favour of some regions to the detriment of others, but washing her hands in doing so by telling us it was for the market to decide

Ok

A lot to absorb there....

But the above is a bit contradictory isnt it? The market does not discriminate.

A non-policy of no regional grants and subsidies is as pure and unfettered as you can get.
 
One of the problems is proportionately the poorer north pay more taxes as a percentage of gross income. A tax band of 60% should be introduced for any income over 100K per annum. I would also introduce an 80% tax band on any annual earnings over 200K.

80%??????? Are you being serious????? Why should those that earn the most money pay for the dole and upkeep (healthcare/education et al) for those that can't be bothered?!?!??!! Ok, that might sound harsh but 80%, even on salaries of £200k+ is laughable. The idea of 60% is a big enough joke on salaries over £100k - again, why should those earning the money subsidise those that aren't? Jesus, I pay enough tax as it is and I'm below the 40% limit, I paid nearly a grand in tax and NI combined lsat month alone.

Your posts on this suject smack of resentment to me, Euro. As has been pointed out to you, a £35k salary wouldn't be comfortable in my book, not living down south it isn't. As Clivex says, it would cost pretty much a minimum of £200k to buy even a one bed flat in London (and since you'll get a four times your salary mortgage, you'll need a £60k deposit for starters as well). Round here, I will not be able to find a flat to rent for less than £500 a month - and they are all bedsits to boot.
 
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