Gordon Brown

[martin]

Originally posted by Colin Phillips@May 4 2008, 10:46 AM
NEW LABOUR has

...............Looked after their own. As Amanda Platell put it their the one's who are loaded and buying posh houses, not the tories (though I accept theirs some wealthy tories aswell). As for being socialist or not, like most people i'm not a expert on socialism though I have a basic grasp of it and all I can say is if taxes go up much higher for the average man and woman on average wages we're bordering on communism in this country.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Colin Phillips@May 4 2008, 10:46 AM
"Successive labour leaders have made mistakes - bad mistakes - but they've made them with the best of intentions."

Do you really believe that, DO?

NEW LABOUR has very little, if anything, to do with the "old labour" values.

In my opinion, they are not a socialist party.

They have got into government under false pretences.

I meant Blair and Brown.

I really do believe that. I've read commentaries by people who worked with Blair and they said he was driven by the need he felt to do the right thing.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Venusian+May 4 2008, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Venusian @ May 4 2008, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Desert Orchid@May 4 2008, 11:21 AM
Brown needs to win over the media. Do that and he'll win over the people.

But this is the very mistake that Brown and previous prime ministers have made over the last 50 years.

Prime Ministers and cabinet ministers tend to spend far too much time talking to, and listening to, fellow politicos and media folk rather than the man or woman in the street. [/b][/quote]
The media dictate what the man or woman in the street thinks.

There may be some cosmetic and PR value to be gained by being seen to go out on the streets and talk to Joe Public but the bottom line is that the public will do what the media tell them.

 

[Venusian]

Originally posted by Desert Orchid+May 4 2008, 01:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Desert Orchid @ May 4 2008, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Venusian@May 4 2008, 11:24 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Desert Orchid

@May 4 2008, 11:21 AM
Brown needs to win over the media. Do that and he'll win over the people.

But this is the very mistake that Brown and previous prime ministers have made over the last 50 years.

Prime Ministers and cabinet ministers tend to spend far too much time talking to, and listening to, fellow politicos and media folk rather than the man or woman in the street.

The media dictate what the man or woman in the street thinks.

There may be some cosmetic and PR value to be gained by being seen to go out on the streets and talk to Joe Public but the bottom line is that the public will do what the media tell them. [/b][/quote]
I think you are dead wrong.

Being in touch with what the public think doesn't have to entail physically walking the streets talking to passers by or doorstepping, but it does mean not surrounding yourself with people from the "chattering classes".

Two examples:

In 1945, the media assumed that the Tories would win the general election pretty easily, but the public thought differently and Labour won a landslide.

During the 1980s, the visual media, eg the TV broadcasters, were largely hostile to the Thatcher government, but that didn't stop the people re-electing the Tories with big majorities.

 

[Desperate Dan]

In my working life I`ve seen the 3 day week, Poll Tax riots, 3M unemployed, recession, Inflation at 28%, Interest rates at 18%, Black Wednesday,the negative equity crisis (and I mean crisis!) of the early 90`s,etc.,etc. All under Conservative govts.

Today we have inflation around 4%, interest rates around 5%, very low unemployment, and the basic rate of tax the lowest in living memory. This after 10 years of virtual record lows in interest rates and inflation.

I think a bit of perspective is called for. As Macmillan said "We`ve never had it so good".

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Venusian+May 4 2008, 01:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Venusian @ May 4 2008, 01:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Desert Orchid@May 4 2008, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Venusian@May 4 2008, 11:24 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Desert Orchid

@May 4 2008, 11:21 AM
Brown needs to win over the media. Do that and he'll win over the people.

But this is the very mistake that Brown and previous prime ministers have made over the last 50 years.

Prime Ministers and cabinet ministers tend to spend far too much time talking to, and listening to, fellow politicos and media folk rather than the man or woman in the street.

The media dictate what the man or woman in the street thinks.

There may be some cosmetic and PR value to be gained by being seen to go out on the streets and talk to Joe Public but the bottom line is that the public will do what the media tell them.

I think you are dead wrong.

Being in touch with what the public think doesn't have to entail physically walking the streets talking to passers by or doorstepping, but it does mean not surrounding yourself with people from the "chattering classes".

Two examples:

In 1945, the media assumed that the Tories would win the general election pretty easily, but the public thought differently and Labour won a landslide.

During the 1980s, the visual media, eg the TV broadcasters, were largely hostile to the Thatcher government, but that didn't stop the people re-electing the Tories with big majorities. [/b][/quote]
Venusian, the media have changed enormously, certainly since the immediate post-war period and even since 1980 they've been incredibly influential. Who can forget the Sun headline urging the country to vote for Thatcher "Would the last person to leave the country please turn the lights out?" when referring to the prospect of a labour win.

Thatcher and her successors subsequently gradually alienated the Sun and they turned to Blair, allowing him a landslide victory.

My opinion is quite simple. The British people generally no longer have the intellectual capacity to understand either politics or economics. Since the early days of the Thatcher government, when greed and self-interest became the predominant motives, they only care about themselves and how many extra pennies they will have in their pocket.

 

[Desperate Dan]

Totally agree, DO.

 

[Venusian]

Let me clear up a couple of quotes.

D Orchid, that quote from the Sun is from 1992, when Major was Prime Minister, not Thatcher.

D Dan, the Macmillan quote should read "Let us be frank about it: most of our people have never had it so good". (Often misquoted as "You've never had it so good", which in fact was an American Democratic party slogan of about the same time).

 

[Merlin the Magician]

Originally posted by Desperate Dan@May 4 2008, 04:36 PM
In my working life I`ve seen the 3 day week, Poll Tax riots, 3M unemployed, recession, Inflation at 28%, Interest rates at 18%, Black Wednesday,the negative equity crisis (and I mean crisis!) of the early 90`s,etc.,etc. All under Conservative govts.

Today we have inflation around 4%, interest rates around 5%, very low unemployment, and the basic rate of tax the lowest in living memory. This after 10 years of virtual record lows in interest rates and inflation.

I think a bit of perspective is called for. As Macmillan said "We`ve never had it so good".

Dan....while I may agree about the basic rate of tax the
stealth taxes have never been so high????? and these commodity-supply companies have a licence to print their own monies..........

Aint it time they reduced the tax on fuel quoted as being 76p per litre......

The Yanks are complaining because their fuel as gone up to £2 a gallon....... :angy:

 

[Desperate Dan]

Merlin, I don`t think there is a single politician from any party who suggests fuel tax should be reduced. Cameron, in particular, would never advocate it as it would destroy his "green"credentials. It`s something we will have to live with.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Venusian@May 4 2008, 07:28 PM
D Orchid, that quote from the Sun is from 1992, when Major was Prime Minister, not Thatcher.

OK. It just seems longer. That's what living the first 15 years of adult life under the tories does to one's memory

 

[Kathy]

Originally posted by Desert Orchid@May 4 2008, 07:11 PM


My opinion is quite simple. The British people generally no longer have the intellectual capacity to understand either politics or economics.

Which is why so many people continued to keep voting Labour in. Let us all hope the tide has now turned. Given the recent local election results and the voting out of Red Ken, the writing (it appears) is definitely on the wall for this goverment.

 

[Sara]

Well said Kathy. Some of us DO are old enough to remember the truly appalling Labour Governments which preceded Thatcher, and the country being brought to its knees by them - I do; and I have to confess being young and foolish I voted for them [not that Ted Heath was any better, though for different reasons]. Thatcher was an entirely necessary evil, created by what preceded her.

It frankly scares me that people with such historical ignorance and total lack of perspective are teaching our young - and explains a great deal. If the electorate no longer understands what is at stake when they are voting - at they don't on the whole - that says a a great deal about both education and the media for the last 20/30 years. Emotion is no substitute for reasoned argument nor for thought.

Some of us have been predicting this Labour implosion for a couple of years now and can only laugh hollowly as Broon attempts to blame international conditions for a financial crisis all of his own making. He interited a sound economy built up with much pain and sacrifice, and has squandered that inheritance. You cannot run an economy based on ever-expanding public, business and private debt for very long.

I'm not at all convinced that the alternative is much better btw, but it could hardly be worse.

PS As regards the media, and political exchange of ideas:
A great deal of that now happens online, with various papers and magazines providing very well used platforms and blogs for comment and the exchange of ideas, both on matters of local and national politics and of world interest such as climate change, Europe etc. This is where the main opinion-forming is going on these days. Tabloids such as the Sun are now almost entirely given over to footie and celebrity nonsense - they just don't have the political clout they once had.

Brown will lose the next election for two reasons, which have nothing to do with his dour image.
One is his mismanagement of the economy, which is now hurting working class people in their pockets;
the other is that he has lied to the electorate - as did his predecessor, over many things inc the Lisbon treaty.
The British electorate is not so stupid it can't tell when it's being lied to, even if many people don't understand enough of the finer argument to know quite why.

 

[Honest Tom]

Originally posted by Headstrong@May 5 2008, 02:26 PM
He interited a sound economy built up with much pain and sacrifice, and has squandered that inheritance.

He inherited a sound economy that was built on the great tory giveaway. Nationalised industries sold for a song to their pals in the city and voters bribed by being allowed to purchase public housing at bargain basement prices.

 

[Desperate Dan]

Headstrong, you can get Evens the Tories having an overall majority at the General Election. Fill ya boots!! Surely nobody is stupid enough to vote Labour, especially if they`ve read your shrewd, detached, unbiased analysis of recent political history.

GET EVIL BROWN OUT!!!

 

[Kathy]

I don't know many people that think the Tories were faultless, far from it, but even the staunchest Labour supporter must realise that this government - and the Brown regime needs booting out. I have said it before, and I will say it again, I don't mind who gets in, as long as it is NOT Labour.

 

[Desperate Dan]

We`re doomed, I tell ya. We`re doomed

Can nobody save us from Broon shrug:: shrug::

 

[Harbinger]

Kathy, surely you do care. The BNP?

 

[Warbler]

Originally posted by Headstrong@May 5 2008, 01:26 PM
Some of us have been predicting this Labour implosion for a couple of years now

I'm not sure that's much of an insight in fairness. A quick flick through your history books will tell you that government's change. I'll predict a Tory implosion some time in the future too

 

[an capall]

I predict economic cycles to continue over the next thirty years. If I am right I'll open up several topics to let you know.

 

[Kathy]

Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@May 5 2008, 11:13 PM
Kathy, surely you do care. The BNP?

I knew someone would ask that question, and I think even you know me well enough Gareth to know the answer to that one.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Headstrong@May 5 2008, 01:26 PM

Well said Kathy. Some of us DO are old enough to remember the truly appalling Labour Governments which preceded Thatcher, and the country being brought to its knees by them - I do; and I have to confess being young and foolish I voted for them [not that Ted Heath was any better, though for different reasons]. Thatcher was an entirely necessary evil, created by what preceded her.

Now you're going back over 35 years, HS. Nobody is denying that the labour governments in the 1960s were flawed but then again do you have the exact figures to hand regarding unemployment and crime in those days?

Thatcher was anything but a necessary evil. In terms of political philosophy, I happen to favour 'benevolent despotism' - which is why I liked Blair - but Maggie was anything but benevolent unless you happened to be rich.

It frankly scares me that people with such historical ignorance and total lack of perspective are teaching our young  - and explains a great deal. If the electorate no longer understands what is at stake when they are voting - at they don't on the whole -  that says a a great deal about both education and the media for the last 20/30 years. Emotion is no substitute for reasoned argument nor for thought.

This is 'way wide of the mark. Teachers are not allowed to express political bias in class. They are only allowed to present facts and commentators' opinions as presented in prescribed texts, therefore they are not at all the explanation for historical ignorance.

Some of us have been predicting this Labour implosion for a couple of years now and can only laugh hollowly as Broon attempts to blame international conditions for a financial crisis all of his own making. He interited a sound economy built up with much pain and sacrifice, and has squandered that inheritance. You cannot run an economy based on ever-expanding public, business and private debt for very long.

I'm not at all convinced that the alternative is much better btw, but it could hardly be worse.

The sound economy that Brown inherited was the one he created as Chancellor. Before New Labour, the economy was a total disaster.

PS  As regards the media, and political exchange of ideas:
A great deal of that now happens online, with various papers and magazines providing very well used platforms and blogs for comment and the exchange of ideas, both on matters of local and national politics and of world interest such as climate change, Europe etc. This is where the main opinion-forming is going on these days. Tabloids such as the Sun are now almost entirely given over to footie and celebrity nonsense - they just don't have the political clout they once had.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that young voters read these esoteric sites? They buy the tabloids because they don't want to read anything serious and don't really want to be seen to be buying the Dandy once they're past the age of 13. The don't even recognise that the Dandy is arguably more educational. Sure the gutter tabloids are full of celebrity sh*te but their political message pervades their pages.

Brown will lose the next election for two reasons, which have nothing to do with his dour image.
One is his mismanagement of the economy, which is now hurting working class people in their pockets;
the other is that he has lied to the electorate - as did his predecessor, over many things inc the Lisbon treaty.
The British electorate is not so stupid it can't tell when it's being lied to, even if many people don't understand enough of the finer argument to know quite why.

The Briitish electorate is stupid enough not to know when it's being lied to - always has and always will. It's usually only moths or years later that the truth comes out.

.

 

[clivex]

The sound economy that Brown inherited was the one he created as Chancellor. Before New Labour, the economy was a total disaster

Thats simply not true....nowhere near the truth



Either way, it is interesting how quickly the electorate has turned on Brown. I almost feel sorry for him

I think hes a classic case of someone of high intellgence and crass judgement. His approval of the highly embarrasing "class war" campaigning in Crewe is a perfect example. And the 10p tax (why did it take a year for everyone to get worked up about that?) was poor headlining (is that a correct phrase???)

When the tide is against you, its the little things that get magnified

Ultimately he was always up against it. Labour has outstayed its welcome in many peoples eyes and as a person, he still comes across as the miserable jock who comes down to the "lundun" head office and who doesnt give a flicker of a smile and moans about everything in sight (reminds me of that Sweeney episode)

I think hes much better than that...but there is something shakespearian in how badly he wanted this job (petulantly even) only to find it falling apart

 

[Euronymous]

I can understand people being a bit miffed with Labour, but there must be a lot of retards in Crewe. Vote for the Liberals if you must, but going direct from Labour to Tory makes no sense.

 

[Sara]

Personally I think anyone who votes for the Liberals needs putting away for their own good, but there you are!

DO I'm not arguing the toss with you as you have a totally closed mind, and you base your arguments such as they are on a very selective view of the past. I'm speaking of the economy which Gordon inherited as Chancellor, which was vigorous and sustainable - mainly thanks to the policies of Ken Clarke. Gordon swore to stick to Clarke's policies fort the first Labour term - and did so. Since he went off on his own social engineering tangent the economy has gone steadily downhill.

The country is now massively in debt and will be for many years, whoever is in power - and that is NOT due to economic cycles: it's due to buying votes with taxpayers money, and idiotic policies,. in NR, Railtrack, PPPs, huge expansion of the public payroll, boondoggle Quangos, the illegal war etc etc etc.

Just one more thing I will say: I was totally broke when Thatcher took power - as were many of my friends, some actually bankrupted by the Labour mismanagement of the economy which preceded her. [I'd always voted Laobur til then btw].

To pretend that only the rich did well under her, when in fact she created an economic climate in which many people from working class and lower middle class backgrounds did every bit as well as the middle classes, is ridiculous piffle - either ignorant or mischievous, it doesn't matter which. It demonstrates that nothing you say on the topic is worth attention. It's just class-based bile, of a kind the Left seems addicted to, poor old fashioned things ...

Speaking of which I've been amused by the Guido Fawkes blogger's coverage of Nantwich & Crewe:

http://www.order-order.com/

As one of the respondents on there posted recently:

<< A Labour prime minister doubles income tax on those earning under £18,000 per annum as well as, over the previous 10 years, reducing, in real terms, the point at which they start paying tax.

A Labour government reduces capital gains tax on 'sharks' (those who want to make a quick buck) from 40% to 18% but for those who want to build something worthwhile over a period of time the rate rises from 10% to 18% and you get no inflation linking either.

Truly, an absolute f*cking disgrace for a Tory party let alone a f*cking Labour one!
And don't get me started on this latest bail out of insolvent banks - you'd never stop me!! >>

I'd add add the wicked pensions robbery and the scandalous neglect of the old and infirm to Gordon's crimes

The FACT is that the gap between rich and poor has never been wider since the 50s - possibly since the 40s; and Tory Govts have historically seemed better able to lift the poor out of poverty by creating an economic climate in which all do well - provided they are prepared to go where the work is.

Labour have never understood money - they never will. The Liberals are just a joke, and a bad joke at that.

Euro, has it never occoured to you that the voters of N&C were actually intensively exposed to the candidates, and thought Timpson was the best of them? From what I've read and seen of him he seems a very good thing. His parents fostered almost 100 deprived and handicapped children with whom he grew up, and his legal practice is principally concerned with related issues - so to run a campaign pretending he's an out of touch toff was terminally idiotic, esp after the Boris/Ken lesson