Gordon Brown

I very much doubt it. They'll change the leader on their own terms first.

There ought to be something where by when a government has become so obviously dysfunctional and no longer fit for purpose then it can be removed by a process other than the very people who have the greatest incentive to keep it in place. I'm not sure the Queen can't do it actually, although it would be terrible if she ever tried to invoke such a power unilaterally against what is still a democratically elected government

Ironically Labours introducing something called "A Communtiy Call For Action" which allows local communities to do something not very dissimilar against local authorities. as is always the case though (John Majors hypocritical 'subsidiarity' being another) the same burden and responsibility is never felt to be appropriate for Westminster
 
Warbler. Good points in the earlier post.

But it wasnt just "niceities" with Blair. It was pure man management. And gettimg the best out of your people (by letting them air their views for one...thats essential) is a very basic element of being a leader. If "oxygen was given to people who didnt merit it" why were they in the cabinet? Borwns building of cliques is incredibly childish and unprofessional for a senior politician. There are slight echos of Thatchers errors late in her career here


I wouldnt entirely agree that Browns grasp on everything was quite as woinderful as you portray. He dominated discussion by bullying (some of the accounts of his behaviour in various bios take some believing...) and had the obvious advantage that all chancellors have of couirse

Hmmm Kelly. Not sure. She was descibed as "bereft of ideas" by senior civil servants i recall and also struck me as a rabbit in headlights automaton. a bigoted religous nut too


Flint has come out of this badly. Awful behaviour. But hanging the expenses issue as a reason for the other resignations will not work. Thats been fully exposed now and as stupid and greedy as they were, there jobs were not under immediate threat. So they didnt have to pre empt anything by resignation
 
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I couldn't believe all this " The Queen not invited to D-Day commemorations crap " . She didn't want to be - its Derby Day !
 
Is there a decent possibility that when the Tories get in next year they won't have much of a majority? I'm hoping Labour voters from the last three or four elections have the nous not to just vote Conservative as if it's the only alternative.
 
Interestingly , had last Thursday's vote been repeated they would only have had a majority of 24 . It is why they are so desperate for a general election now . They fear a Labour recovery and a hung Parliament and having to get into bed with Nick Clegg.
 
Clegg would equally get toasted by the Liberals if he cuddled up to the Tories, and since a lot of the Liberal pitch will be aimed at disenchanted Labour voters, their own support will be furious if they ally with the Tories, and a never trust the Liberals again in a generation mood would develop that would do the centrist party a lot of medium term damage. They'd be better off putting the Conservatives into a minority administration and watch it fall apart. I'd be surprised if Cameron could manage a majority of less than 20 anyway. Initially they'd fall in to line as sustained spells in opposition tend to do this to you, but the Tories have never been able to lance the boil of the EU from their party and there'd also be the old-fashioned Tory who doesn't like Cameron, as well as the 'Thatcher youth' to contend with.

Incidentally, 'The Observers' reproduced the fashion shoot that Caroline Flint did for the 'Observers Women' supplement today!!! At one level I have to say she's looks pretty glamerous, but it transpires that she wasn't instructed to do these photos against her will, and Downing Street was apparently furious with them, as they felt she was concentrating more on self-promotion, personal presentation and fashion than she was on her ministerial brief.

Her own resignation letter of course said something like "women - myself included - had been used as little more than female window dressing". Now where as I can accept that Flint cuts a fair figure, but Jaquci Smith? God - even her husband would rather seek solace in a porno!!!. Or Hazel blears? window dressing? God streuth. If your saw that window your first reaction would be to throw a brick straight through it

Flint goes on to say (rather tellingly)

"they used me when it was convenient - they put me on the GMTV sofa, or on Newsnight - but then judged me not on my work, but who my friends are"

Well in the first case I can accept that GMTV would be consistant with her window dressing accusation, but I can't accept the same about Newsnight as the BBC's premier politics and current affairs magazine programme. Paxman et al are hardly likely to be asking her the soft questions she'd get off Roland Rat!!!.

The issue of being judged by who your friends are is altogether more revealing. As I observed earlier, (and it seems to have been missed in the media) Flint was Blears campaign manager for her Deputy Leadership bid. This would be the same Blears who launched an attack on Brown a month ago with her "youtube if you want to" and went on to say how everything Brown did was about style, presentation, policy synnergies, strategy reviews, and conceptual management models, and that nothing was about delivery on the ground. What she seemed to be saying was that the government was content to present something by way of announcement, and then settle for this, in the mistaken belief that it was being rolled out to the chalk face. (echoes of Flints grievances to do with window dressing?)

It sounds to me as if Flint's backed the wrong horse in Blears (wouldn't be the first politican to do so) and it's entirely understandable that if Browns got a loose canon running around in Blears, than he's not going to confide in, or promote someone like Flint who would be one of her closest allies and confidants (he'd be stupid to).

Her attempts to try and pin this on a gender issue is a tad disingenious, and perhaps she's recognising that it could be the company she's been keeping, but even then, she's another one whose part of this self-styled coven calling themselves 'women against Gordon'.

I think the bottom line is that Brown basically doesn't suffer fools!!!

It's that straight forward.

Blair had a better grasp as to how to accomodate them, and allow them to believe they were involved. By contrast Brown doesn't, and once someone is perceived as being a fool, then that's it. As I said, he just doesn't see the point in indulging them, and doesn't suffer their presence.

I'm reminded of Estelle Morris. Now she you might recall was a sort of unique ministerial resignation in that she cited 'Not being up to the job' as her reason for going (though Brown I seem to recall was pretty central to persuading that she wasn't?). Now I'm seriously struggling to believe that Morris is the only minister in the history of government that hasn't been up to managing a major portfolio, but she is probably the only one whose had the humility to admit it. She was for the most part a reasonably timid woman, of no particular ego, and seemingly no hidden or personal development agenda. She genuinely seemed to want to do the right thing, and was really an educationalist lost in a politicans skin.

Now do we see similarities with messrs Blears, Hughes, Flint and especially Smith? I do. Again, probably people of questionable ability (Smith in particular) but because they have a greater sense of denial of their own limitations as politicans by Browns particularly exacting standards, they were never going to go the Morris route and admit their thresholds had been exceeded. It's a far more palatable and a convenient association for them to realise that they're all women, and so hey presto, Brown doesn't like women - that explains it gals!!!

As it happens, I tend to be of the opinion that Brown doesn't like many people, and has a capacity to alienate either gender and completely dismiss anyone who he just disregards as an idiot. As i said, he really doesn't suffer fools gladly.



nb

If anyone can find the Flint photoshoot, it does make it a tad difficult for her sustain her central allegation of being used as female window dressing I'd suggest when she consented to this seemingly behind Downing Streets back. I'm counting at least 4 costume changes, not to emntion the make up, lighting, poses, and props. It is in truth the sort of thing that sets women in politics back, though i suspect would have earned a job as Foreign Secretary in a Berlusconi government
 
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Clegg would equally get toasted by the Liberals if he cuddled up to the Tories, and since a lot of the Liberal pitch will be aimed at disenchanted Labour voters, their own support will be furious if they ally with the Tories, and a never trust the Liberals again in a generation mood would develop that would do the centrist party a lot of medium term damage. They'd be better off putting the Conservatives into a minority administration and watch it fall apart. I'd be surprised if Cameron could manage a majority of less than 20 anyway. Initially they'd fall in to line as sustained spells in opposition tend to do this to you, but the Tories have never been able to lance the boil of the EU from their party and there'd also be the old-fashioned Tory who doesn't like Cameron, as well as the 'Thatcher youth' to contend with.

Incidentally, 'The Observers' reproduced the fashion shoot that Caroline Flint did for the 'Observers Women' supplement today!!! At one level I have to say she's looks pretty glamerous, but it transpires that she wasn't instructed into these photos against her will, and Downing Street was furious with them as they felt she was concentrating more on self-promotion, personal presentation and fashion than she was on her ministerial brief.

Her own resignation letter of course said something like "women - myself included - had been used as little more than female window dressing". Now where as I can accept that Flint cuts a fair figure, but Jaquci Smith? God even her husband would rather seek solace in a porno. Or Hazel blears? window dressing? God streuth. If your saw that window your first reaction would be to throw a brick straight through it

Flint goes on to say (rather tellingly)

"they used me when it was convenient - they put me on the GMTV sofa, or on Newsnight - but then judged me not on my work, but who my friends are"

Well in the first case I can accept that GMTV would be consistant with her window dressing accusation, but I can't accept the same about Newsnight as the BBC's premier politics and current affairs magazine programme. Paxman et al are hardly likely to be asking her the soft questions she'd get off Roland Rat.

The issue of being judged by who your friends are is altogether more revealing. As i observed earlier, (and it seems to have been missed in the media) Flint was Blears campaign manager for her Deputy Leadership bid. This would be the same Blears who launched an attack on Brown a month ago with her "youtube if you want to" and went on to say how everything Brown did was about style, presentation, policy synnergies, strategy reviews, and conceptual management models and that nothing was about delivery on the ground. What she seemed to be saying was that the government was content to present something by way of announcement, and then settle for this, in the mistaken believe that it was being rolled out to the chalk face. (Echoes of Flints grievances to do with window dressing?)

It sounds to me as if Flint's backed the wrong horse in Blears (wouldn't be the first politican to do so) and it's entirely understandable that if Browns got a loose canon running around in Blears, than he's not going to confide in, or promote someone like Flint who would be one of her closest allies and confidants (he'd be stupid to).

Her attempts to try and pin this on a gender issue is tad disingenious, and perhaps she's recognising that it could be the company she's been keeping, but even then, she's another one whose part of this self-styled coven calling themselves 'women against Gordon'.

I think the bottom line is that Brown basically doesn't suffer fools!!!

It's that straight forward.

Blair had a better grasp as to how to accomodate them, and allow them to believe they were involved. By contrast Brown doesn't, and once someone is perceived as being a fool, then that's it.

I'm reminded of Estelle Morris. Now she you might recall was a sort of unique ministerial resignation in that she cited 'Not being up to the job' as her reason for going (though Brown I seem to recall was pretty central to persuading that she wasn't?). Now I'm seriously struggling to believe that Morris is the only minister in the history of government that hasn't been up to managing a major portfolio, but she is probably the only one whose had the humility to admit it. She was for the most part a reasonably timid woman, or no particular ego, and seemingly no hidden or personal development agenda. She genuinely seemed to want to do the right thing, and was really an educationalist lost in a politicans skin.

Now do we see similarities with messrs Blears, Hughes, Flint and especially Smith? I do. Again, probably people of questionable ability (Smith in particular) but because they have a greater sense of denial of their own limitations as politicans by Browns particularly exacting standards, they were never going to go the Morris route and admit their thresholds had been exceeded. It's a far more palatable and a convenient association for them to realise that they're all women, and so hey presto, Brown doesn't like women - that explains it gals!!!

As it happens, I tend to be of the opinion that Brown doesn't like many people, and has a capacity to alienate either gender and completely dismiss anyone who he just disregards as an idiot. As i said, he really doesn't suffer fools gladly.



nb

If anyone can find the Flint photoshoot, it does make it a tad difficult for her sustain her central allegation of being used as female window dressing I'd suggest when she consented to this seemingly behind Downing Streets back. I'm counting at least 4 costume changes, not to emntion the make up, lighting, poses, and props. It is in truth the sort of thing that sets women in politics back, though i suspect would have earned a job as Foreign Secretary in a Berlusconi government

I remembered today that Flint was the idiot who did a Bob Quick and turned up when she was housing minister ( and the general view was that she was a crap and uninterested housing minister) at a Cabinet meeting and showed her confidential papers to the zoom lens .

No wonder Brown thought she was an eejit. I suspect that your analysis is right . I also suspect that Beckett has only gone due to her expenses claims .

As for Clegg I am not so sure . He is an Orange Book liberal and in many ways closer to the Tories . His problem would be that Cable would end up Chancellor ( which would be vastly preferable to Bullingham George) and Clegg would be exposed for the lightweight that he is .

Cable is the organ grinder - Clegg the monkey.
 
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Brown doesnt just dislike and have contempt for "fools" as Robin Cook (RIP and much missed) would testify. They hated each other

I think it is very optimistic to talk about labour "recoveries" and narrow majorities. Under current leader they will be hammered unless he can genuinely chnage the whole tenor of his administration and if they change again, the election would have to be quick and I doubt whether Johnson would have the time to gain momentum.

If Harperson stands, then its a case of will the last mp turning the light out on the way out
 
Harman isn't going to stand Clive.

What I suspect she's calculated is that if Brown is removed (one way or another in the next 7 days or so) as duly elected Deputy Leader of the Labour party, she inherits. Mandelson's appointed position of 'First Secretary' widely interpreted as being de facto 'Deputy PM' would be meaningless when set against the party's constitution.

It would also explain why Harman hasn't joined the hue and cry, as she'll be well aware that she can't be seen to be involved in any such activity and needs to be above it (even if she and her coven have been taking soundings for the last few months). She isn't going to be able to present herself as a unifier if she's an open plotter. It would seemingly set her on a collision course with Mandelson though.

In fact Mandelson is a good example of what you talked about with Brown and Cook. The Brown/Cook fall out owed more to policy differences, but towards the end of Robins life they'd arrived at an uneasy relationship with each other. We'll never know if this would have been reflected in a cabinet post of course, but with their differences on Scotland seemingly brought within the realms of being managable, and with Cook increasingly vindicated over Iraq they had allegedly kissed and made up. I have little doubt that Brown was well aware of Cook's 'ability' without necessarily having to like him, in much the same way he was/ is of Mandelson's. In many respects Mandelson and Brown were further apart from each other than Brown and Cook, and yet Brown was still sufficiently appreciative of Mandelson's ability as a politican to recognise that this takes precedence over personal dislike (which I don't think anyone would be so stupid as to believe has evapourated)
 
She is the spitting image of Lady Margaret Beaufort , mother of Henry VII !

Sounds like one for Betsmate to get on to and perform some of that trickery with his software. Picture of Lady Beaufort and then same picture with Becketts face on it please:D

We'll let the TH star chamber be the judge
 
Harman isn't going to stand Clive.

What I suspect she's calculated is that if Brown is removed (one way or another in the next 7 days or so) as duly elected Deputy Leader of the Labour party, she inherits. Mandelson's appointed position of 'First Secretary' widely interpreted as being de facto 'Deputy PM' would be meaningless when set against the party's constitution.

It would also explain why Harman hasn't joined the hue and cry, as she'll be well aware that she can't be seen to be involved in any such activity and needs to be above it (even if she and her coven have been taking soundings for the last few months). She isn't going to be able to present herself as a unifier if she's an open plotter. It would seemingly set her on a collision course with Mandelson though.

In fact Mandelson is a good example of what you talked about with Brown and Cook. The Brown/Cook fall out owed more to policy differences, but towards the end of Robins life they'd arrived at an uneasy relationship with each other. We'll never know if this would have been reflected in a cabinet post of course, but with their differences on Scotland seemingly brought within the realms of being managable, and with Cook increasingly vindicated over Iraq they had allegedly kissed and made up. I have little doubt that Brown was well aware of Cook's 'ability' without necessarily having to like him, in much the same way he was/ is of Mandelson's. In many respects Mandelson and Brown were further apart from each other than Brown and Cook, and yet Brown was still sufficiently appreciative of Mandelson's ability as a politican to recognise that this takes precedence over personal dislike (which I don't think anyone would be so stupid as to believe has evapourated)

Not sure about that - Brown and Mandelson were very close and fell out badly over Mandy's support for Blair . They didn't personally dislike each other before that . They may well be friends again , albeit it is doubtful they will be as close again . There is a bit of Mandy making up for his past desertion of Brown by him now being the most loyal of the loyal.
 
Mandelson was very robustly defensive of Brown on Andrew Marr's programme this morning. And very impressive he was too, I'd say. He makes Cameron look a very lightweight politician (which we all know he is anyway).
 
The Cook Brown fallout was not about policy differences. It was very personal from accounts I have read.

Brown (and Cook to an extent too...) alienates an extraordinary number of colleagues. Hard to think of a senior politician who was quite so adept at creating enemies throughout a career
 
The Cook Brown fallout was not about policy differences. It was very personal from accounts I have read.

Brown (and Cook to an extent too...) alienates an extraordinary number of colleagues. Hard to think of a senior politician who was quite so adept at creating enemies throughout a career

Herbert Morrison - Mandy's grandfather .
 
Anyone beleive that Brown will go if election results are as bad as predicted?

On a similar note i've seen the commentators saying "if" the rest of the cabinet walked out he'd have to resign...anyone beleive that?

The man, whatever the hell he is, does seem stubborn. His whole government could walk out and he'd still think he was the man with substance that could do the best job?

Sets a dangerous precendent - when the prime minister does'nt listen to advice from senior figures in his own party (and the rest of the country for that matter), and just plods along in self denial, really really worrying that.

I'm sure he's not the first but this is beyond a joke now.
 
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Sets a dangerous precendent - when the prime minister does'nt listen to advice from senior figures in his own party (and the rest of the country for that matter),

Or her party?

A precedent was set a couple of decades ago
 
Just a quick and crude effort I'm afraid.

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