Gordon Brown

It's so out of touch to keep blamiing Thatcher. I'd hope i'd speak for the younger generation (the lost genration under labour) when I say broadly speaking as a young voter I couldn't give a toss about the in's and out's of what she did.

Anyways no point in going down a dead end with that one.
 
Mandleson made me laugh this morning.

He kicks off by clarifying his position on the emails, but then proceeeds to tell Andrew Marr what he won't do is "comment of every rumour or old email' etc.

Does he not think everyone could see he was manipulating the facts (and indeed media) for his own ends? Sums up the government - tell us the parts that suit you and exclude everything else.
 
Yes Martin, you really ought to be taught what an absolute arseole that woman was. Before she was Prime Minister we had a civilised country where people of all ages understood the diffference between right and wrong, she destroyed that in one fell swoop and it will never return.
 
Your missing the point Martin. You shouldn't be talking in terms of a non listening, Cabinet bashing PM as being some kind of startling revelation, that some how implies that Brown is trespassing into hitherto unforeseen territory. Far from it. Thatch was much worse and as she grew more and more despotic she assumed much more the mantle of dictator than democrat. She herself said all she ever asked for "were six good like minded men" (not people you note - Thatcher never had a woman in any of her cabinets). She also lamented that although she felt she'd had the 6 men, she never had them at the same time, (which actually conjures a horrible image, but lets definately not go there).

Mandelson is quite right not to comment on every email a journo can dredge up (any sensible politican would). Can you imagine what that would unleash if a journalistic class only had to produce an email or out of context memo to draw a response from a politican? It's the same way as the MoD never comment on SAS activity. You couldn't let the geanie out the bottle. As soon as you get in the habit of feeling it necessary to comment thus it would become open season, and there'd be no shortage of journo's inventing their own emails if they knew it would elicit a reply.

And yes Brown would have to go if the cabinet walked out. I doubt very much he could survive two more walk outs, and possibly just a single one dependign on who it was, and what they gave as their reason.
 
I'll say it again - "the lost generation"! Any of you who live in the big cities will know what I mean by this? I have people who I went to school with who have been on jobseekers allowance since they left school, and they're the good ones!

The others got caught up in drugs and crime and what have you, and the little mice controlling 10 downing street couldn't do much for them. I suppose i'm a optimist so I look to the future and try to use the evidence of the current day to form my views and beliefs (I beleive thats the fast type of changing world we live in nowadays).

I'm sorry some of you keep looking back to a period 25 years ago when we had our first woman prime minister, and using her shortcomings as a reason to pull labour through (of course only labour folk would still waste their time on this one). Most off all I find Thatcher bashing people affirmed in their obviously long standing political beliefs. Most are well educated and therefore feel for that reason they must be right, it's just a shame many can't live in the here and now, for if they did Labour might actually look they're listening to a ever changing society and a society in trouble in all respects?

Warbler - you miss the point. Mandy did comment on the email, but only to say his version of events. when asked a question then he comes out with his phillosophical views about why he should not comment. i see it time and again in my local council. They manipulate the facts for their own ends and leave the rest - i'm afraid it is an all too common trait in the modern day left of centre officials in the country today.
 
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I'll say it again - "the lost generation"! Any of you who live in the big cities will know what I mean by this? I have people who I went to school with who have been on jobseekers allowance since they left school, and they're the good ones!

Does the phrase "Get on your bike!" mean anything?
 
We have thousands of young people washing ashore in the UK every year, certainly since the 1960s, from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and virtually every European country you can think of, all eager to find themselves even very menial jobs, for the interest of being in the UK (and also, judging by my very limited visits to Ireland, there, too), and none of them have any problem at all in taking up any kind of work. They're in offices, they're on building sites, they're in care homes, they're particularly strong in catering jobs, and they tend to stay at least three years before perhaps moving on to sample life in yet another country. And now, since the violently high rise in serious crime in South Africa started some years back, we have thousands of South Africans (plus indigenous and white Zimbabweans) staying on, carving out long-term careers or creating businesses for themselves.

So, if thousands of English-speaking outsiders can plonk down one day and find a job the next, how the hell can't thousands of English-speaking Brits do the same in their own country?
 
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Thats obviously very good Krizon, and i'm sure they are contributing to the U.K economy (i think most sane people value jobs and value people who are paying taxes from their jobs to keep this economy from bankruptcy).

What I tryed to alude to, is for many of the British youth, they are between a fairly large rock and a hard place, and we wonder why we have so many pregnant teens and drug dealers?

Of course my perspective of people i've known for years can not tell the whole story, but I would have thought comparing the British youth with foreign nationals will get us nowhere productively in a hurry.

I don't know what an earth Gareth's point is, or more the relevence of it. we've a massive threadtfrom the bnp now I suppose that relates to Thatcher as well.
 
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Does the phrase "Get on your bike!" mean anything?
I gather many are so engrossed in taking drugs that full time employment is not an option. It was more a observation than anything. Again, i'm afraid the drugs part can't be blamed on Thatcher, thats something that exploded under the Labour government - if only all the policy's on drugs actually worked, aye.
 
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Hi, Martin - the point I'm trying to get across is how easy it is for these visiting youngsters (even if the visits expand to several years!) to find work when they arrive. So why is it so apparently difficult for the young people you know to not do so also? If you say the many youngsters you know have been on State hand-outs since leaving education, then why is that so, when an Aussie backpacker can trail into a bistro, pick up a job in the kitchen, or serving, or even managing, within a few days after his (or her, of course) arrival? The comparison appears to be that they're willing to move around, willing to accept fairly low-level starter jobs, and have the attitude that if they're going to keep themselves alive (rather than the State), then they'd best get working.

So I don't see why one shouldn't raise the comparison, which is quite appropriate, of why non-British youngsters can easily slot themselves into our economy, and British youngsters - well, those you describe, anyway - loll around bemoaning their fate, while presumably indulging in expensive and self-destructive habits? What is this rock and a hard place that thousands of jobless young people are between? Would the rock be the lack of desire to shift themselves to areas where there are jobs (hence Gareth's 'on yer bike' remark) and the hard place that they live in shitty areas/estates - which, if they would show a bit of gumption and get on their metaphorical bikes and go where's there's work, wouldn't be a factor.

You seem to be saying that the only thing for Britain's young girls to do is to get pregnant, and for its young boys to do is to either take drugs or panhandle them. Well, I've lived in areas of the UK where there are some pretty godawful estates, but what holds people down in them is their refusal to train, or to re-train, or to move away from Mum, Dad, Gran and their old school pals. If they're not willing to take the risk to shift around a bit, then they have only their rock-like mentality to blame for not getting jobs where they exist. As for dealing in drugs - there's no excuse for this other than greed and stupidity. If you saw the truly awful poverty of many countries around the world (as against the don't-care muckiness and self-imposed slovenliness of our so-called sink estates), then yes, there's certainly an appeal to better one's awful conditions (15 kids, two-room slum huts made of cardboard, no clean water, no electricity, etc.) if you're offered the job as a look-out, a mule, or a dealer. Certainly, the Cali cartel in Colombia has done wonders for such communities, raising them out of the gutters to which the country's corrupt and overbearing government consigned them. The top drugs bosses have built schools, hospitals, neo-natal clinics, roads, installed electricity and running water, and improved the health of villagers immensely - thanks to dopers like the young people you mention. But as for our young people, with free education offered (which is a hopeless dream for millions of young gutter kids all over the Third World), free medical services (ditto), and endless post-education training schools (ditto again), sorry, but I've no sympathy for the lazy little dossers.
 
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I don't know what an earth Gareth's point is

No, I didn't think you would, because you appear wilfully ignorant of anything that happened in Britain pre-1997.

Let's just say that if you expect a Conservative government to have any sympathy whatsoever for the situation that your unemployed friends have found themselves in, you're going to be very disappointed.
 
Hi Krizon, good post.

What i'm saying is, there is a huge problem with some elements of the youth (from what I can see). One of my best mates is actually from Denmark and he has no job at the moment, and this is a guy who gets himself to the gym every day! There is a huge problem with employment at the moment full stop.

Beleive me i'm not taking pity on anyone. Just because I have political beliefs does not mean I do not enquire and speak to people who I went to nursery with. Do I lecture them on politics and why they should get on their bike, no., I just see them as old friends, as thats how they treat me.

Although I take heed of what your saying, I still think there is a problem that needs addressing. Yes we need people back in to work but if these same people were in school only a few years ago then I feel the government should take their responsibility for it as well, hence my earlier posts about the "lost generation" under labour.
 
No, I didn't think you would, because you appear wilfully ignorant of anything that happened in Britain pre-1997.

Let's just say that if you expect a Conservative government to have any sympathy whatsoever for the situation that your unemployed friends have found themselves in, you're going to be very disappointed.
How bitter does it get. Does friendship and loyalty mean anything to you? do you honestly think I play party politics on people I went to nursery with?

I hope your labour party burns in hell, old boy.
 
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One of the reasons I am not a right winger is because i'm not willyfully ignorant of Margerat Thatcher's time in office.

I think you should educate yourself about the threat from the bnp Gareth, and stop being spiteful to people who are against Labour - I wonder if you'd do the same were I a liberal?

By the way I was born in 1985 and I am optimistic about this country's future under a government other than the one we have now.

I don't feel there's anything more I can add to this thread, hence it's best in the hands of Browns admirers.

ps, why anyone thinks as a talking horses member I have to take a degree course on Margaret Thatcher to comment on anything Labour have done over the last 12 years is a bit stupid?
 
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So you're saying you're not willfully ignorant about history, you just don't give a toss? I'm not sure which is worse.

Oh, and I don't need to be told about the threat of the BNP thanks. I've been very clear in recent days (on this very forum) about what I think of them and those who vote for them so don't go jumping to any conclusions on that score.
 
What do we make of the BNP rise though?

Frankly it goes further than a protest vote and I think that as disgusting as their policies are it is very clear that they strike a chord with a sizeable sector of the white working class

The squeeze on wages and jobs caused by eastern european immigration (this is even kicking home in offices in the SE now...and theres some friction) is an unavoidable issue. Its not taht people dont want to work it is the fear of being undercut and increased job insecurity...even when we were supposedly booming...that is the issue.

Secondly, there is a feeling amongst the white working class that they should have a stronger claim upon services and benefits than recent immigrants. They consider that being native and perhaps contributors for generations then their stake is greater. The difficulty is that srvice providers cannot be seen to discriminate and nor should they

Frankly the lefts obsession with "minorities" is also a factor.

As things get tighter, i can see their appeal widening. They have the rollercoaster of coverage now

I think the best way to counter the BNP is to take them seriously rather than dismiss. Why? Because when they have had some power (burnley) they have proved to be pretty useless. Not only that, a large number of their candidates are frankly morons and easy prey.

But its a dangerous game for somewhat smug and not exactly popular established politicians to continue to contempyuously dismiss them....

That in itself will drive voters into their arms
 
The squeeze on wages and jobs caused by eastern european immigration (this is even kicking home in offices in the SE now...and theres some friction) is an unavoidable issue. Its not taht people dont want to work it is the fear of being undercut and increased job insecurity...even when we were supposedly booming...that is the issue.

I think people should have freedom of movement in the EU but I agree there is a problem.

One of the less contentious ways of dealing with it would be to beef up policing of labour laws so that nobody is allowed to work in dangerous conditions, people receive their holiday, social insurance and welfare entitlements, and minimum wage legislation is fully enforced. This would prevent the worst forms of exploitation and set a minimum price on labour.
 
I think people should have freedom of movement in the EU but I agree there is a problem.

One of the less contentious ways of dealing with it would be to beef up policing of labour laws so that nobody is allowed to work in dangerous conditions, people receive their holiday, social insurance and welfare entitlements, and minimum wage legislation is fully enforced. This would prevent the worst forms of exploitation and set a minimum price on labour.

I note that in the finest traditions of eurocratic diagnosis you seek the 'less contentious' approach, rather than perhaps lookign for the most effective and appropriate which would be to throw 'Lisbon' into a brazier
 
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